BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums banner

Cost of changing throttle position sensors?

18K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  Edgy36-39  
#1 · (Edited)
Folks,

I'm getting peake codes E6 and 6B, which based on what I've read on the board, seems to indicate the throttle position sensors are bad. The car is also in engine fail safe mode. So after reading all the posts and watching the videos about changing ther TPS myself, I think it would probably take me an entire day and perhaps not the best use of my time. So I was wondering what others have paid to get these changed either at the dealer or at a independent shop? I'm just trying to figure out if it's too expensive, then I may have to tackle it myself.

Also, there is an independent shop that I could use which is only a about a mile away so do you think it's ok to drive it there in limp mode or best to get a flatbed?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Hugh
 
#2 ·
I recently had mine changed. My cost was about $350 or so. My Indy was about 15 miles from my house and I limped the car over there. Most members told me I could have tackled it myself, but I gave it to my Indy instead. Good luck and hopefully you get the Beast up and running soon.
 
#4 ·
Mine cost $300 in San Diego at an Indy.
 
#5 · (Edited)
I want to know what is the difference between TPS AND CPS...i know tps is throttle postions sensors ..and the cps is cam postions sensors....but what is the difference between them and are they related? and what they do exactley effect on the m5?
Thank you
 
#6 ·
TPS are not too bad to change if you know what you are getting into. If not, whether you are doing the repair or not, things can be rather tough.

If you can pull the plenum, you can change the TPS. Change both at the same time, do not do just 1.

The trick is you need to modify a $15 tool, then you are in good shape. A Dremel tool to cut a Phillips hex bit in 1/2 and a ratchet hex driver like this is all you need. Most local auto parts stores have these or Amazon.

Amazon.com: Great Neck 51063 Mini Ratchet and Bit Set, 10-Piece: Home Improvement

You should be able to do the job in about 2 hours max if you are reasonably proficient at wrenching.

For the question about CPS & TPS.

CPS = Camshaft Position Sensor, reports the cam position to the DME. S62 has 4, 2 on each bank for exhaust & intake camshaft.
CPS = Crankshaft Position Sensor, reports engine rotation position and top dead center for cylinder #1 to DME. S62 has only 1.
TPS = Throttle Position Sensor, reports throttle angle to DME. S62 has 2, 1 on each throttle shaft.
 
#7 ·
TPS are not too bad to change if you know what you are getting into. If not, whether you are doing the repair or not, things can be rather tough.

If you can pull the plenum, you can change the TPS. Change both at the same time, do not do just 1.

The trick is you need to modify a $15 tool, then you are in good shape. A Dremel tool to cut a Phillips hex bit in 1/2 and a ratchet hex driver like this is all you need. Most local auto parts stores have these or Amazon.

Amazon.com: Great Neck 51063 Mini Ratchet and Bit Set, 10-Piece: Home Improvement

You should be able to do the job in about 2 hours max if you are reasonably proficient at wrenching.

For the question about CPS & TPS.

CPS = Camshaft Position Sensor, reports the cam position to the DME. S62 has 4, 2 on each bank for exhaust & intake camshaft.
CPS = Crankshaft Position Sensor, reports engine rotation position and top dead center for cylinder #1 to DME. S62 has only 1.
TPS = Throttle Position Sensor, reports throttle angle to DME. S62 has 2, 1 on each throttle shaft.

Awesome, thanks.
 
#10 ·
Hmmm, how familiar is your indie with M5's??

E6 ("Drive-by-wire, throttle position failure" or "electronic throttle setpoint/actual value deviation") and 6B ("Control unit self-test, pre-drive check of drive by wire system" or "electronic throttle self test) are definitely saying the DME isn't happy with the way the drive-by-wire is behaving. It's telling the throttle to go to a certain position and the TPS's are saying it isn't going there.
(This is assuming you are reading the Peake 6 and b correctly.)

So I would suspect TPS's, the throttle actuator between the cylinder heads, or binding in the throttle linkages or throttle plates.

A GT1 test by a dealer of indie may pinpoint the problem better.

The AA code definitely does not cause the car to go into limp mode.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I'm pretty sure I read the codes correctly since I got the engine fail safe mode on the dash as well.

As far as the indy shop, it's supposedly a reputable place but I talked to him again this morning and he hit me with "you gotta clean the heads because of carbon buildup".

But he also said he checked the MAF and O2 sensors, and the TPS - they were all fine. So I'm confused now. Maybe it's not the sensor and some of the other things you mentioned. Need to take it somewhere else is my conclusion.

Thanks
 
#12 ·
If he pulled SAP (Secondary Air Pump) codes, these will have absolutely nothing to do with you running in limp mode.

If the shop does not have a BMW specific code reader and at least some sort of BMW coding software, you need to go elsewhere?

This shop is clueless if they think the AA codes have anything do do with your limp mode.

I would probably stay away from the dealer at all costs as well, or at least the dealers in my area!

See if you can get a recommendation from someone in your area for a good indy?
 
#14 ·
If he pulled SAP (Secondary Air Pump) codes, these will have absolutely nothing to do with you running in limp mode.

If the shop does not have a BMW specific code reader and at least some sort of BMW coding software, you need to go elsewhere?

This shop is clueless if they think the AA codes have anything do do with your limp mode.

I would probably stay away from the dealer at all costs as well, or at least the dealers in my area!

See if you can get a recommendation from someone in your area for a good indy?
I had the exact same symptoms as you, same codes and everything. 2 TPS sensors later, all was well. I DIYed it - long nose pliers did the trick and I replaced the bolts with hex. No offense to your mechanic but find a new one - SAS has nothing to do with what you've got. GL

So here's an update - picked up the car and it's as if nothing is wrong with it. Runs just fine, no limp mode but still got the AA code after they reset it. So will the old codes still be stored if they cleared them? There's another place that I was going to take it to tomorrow but if the codes aren't there, there may not be a point until they get triggered again. The only thing that I've noticed is that this happens when it's cold outside. Maybe that's why it hasn't been an issue the last few days since we've had nice weather here in SoCal.

Thanks
 
#13 · (Edited)
I had the exact same symptoms as you, same codes and everything. 2 TPS sensors later, all was well. I DIYed it - long nose pliers did the trick and I replaced the bolts with hex. No offense to your mechanic but find a new one - SAS has nothing to do with what you've got. GL
 
#15 ·
AA codes on a 2000 is pretty typical.

Do not understand what you are trying to resolve, AA codes or limp mode/TPS issues?

AA codes will best be addressed with a different DME flash? So just take the AA codes off the table for now and forget about these.

If your codes were cleared, then most likely no trail of the history.

Do not know what to tell you other than to buy a Peake code reader so you can read and reset your codes yourself and forget trying to have a shop be the middle man.

Once you start logging codes with dates/mileage and code combinations, you will probably start to get a better idea of what is happening?

Good luck with getting more info and trying to sort the issue.
 
#18 · (Edited)
AA codes on a 2000 is pretty typical.

Do not understand what you are trying to resolve, AA codes or limp mode/TPS issues?

AA codes will best be addressed with a different DME flash? So just take the AA codes off the table for now and forget about these.

If your codes were cleared, then most likely no trail of the history.

Do not know what to tell you other than to buy a Peake code reader so you can read and reset your codes yourself and forget trying to have a shop be the middle man.

Once you start logging codes with dates/mileage and code combinations, you will probably start to get a better idea of what is happening?

Good luck with getting more info and trying to sort the issue.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. There are two issues and I was trying to determine whether they're related. The AA code has been around for a while and I'm fairly certain that it's not related to the engine fail safe mode. I have a peake reader and the codes I got before taking it to the shop indicated something about the TPS. So the shop "checked" and then reset the codes. So everything should have been cleared but the AA code came back, as expected. I was just wondering if the previous TPS-related codes would still be in the DME so I can have it diagnosed at another place with a GT1 or something more detailed. Doesn't appear that can happen unless the TPS-related codes come back...


Did he say HOW he checked the maf, o2 and TPS??????????? Did he run GT1 level diagnostics, or just no codes after he cleared them?

Didn't say how but I'm done with that shop anyway.


Thanks for the input.
 
#16 ·
Restart after cleaning throttles

Check out this post:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/167754-tps-diy-4.html

Note that it is easier to remove and replace by taking the cabin air intakes off than the wiring harness covers. I am doing this job now and decided to do a TB cleaning.

Cheapest Hella OEM I found was here: partsgeek.com

Having issues restarting and now the battery's dead, so recharging at 10 A at the moment. Anyone know of starting issues with the plenum off?

Thx
 
#19 ·
If the codes are cleared, there will be no specific history, VERY small caveat and I think I am correct on this??? I believe the DME has the ability to allow the dealers and/or anyone with the proper tools to store notes about repairs within the DME??? I was using DIS on my car and found notes that would have only been entered by the dealer at some point in the cars life?? Maybe I am seeing aliens and UFO's, but there was some interesting stuff I found looking at my car via DIS.

So the only thing that may show up are pending codes that have not triggered a CEL yet. Not sure if clearing the codes will clear pending codes that have not triggered the CEL, but I assume it may??

What the important lesson for everyone here to understand is the following:

1. Any fault code is should only be considered a "clue", it is not guarantee the part associated with the code is intermittent, faulty or needs to be replaced. It just means something is out of the expected parameter for the control or input circuit. Many of the stated faults are not accurate, but could be an indicator as to some problem within the circuit. So for example on my car I have a Body code for my drivers side fuel sensor, it states the fault as short to positive. I call BS on this. The DME/IKE has shunt resistors to monitor many of the analog and digital circuits. The problem is BMW came up a bit short in their smarts to really narrow down problems. If the fuel level sensor itself opens the circuit and/or there is a wiring problem between the BMW/IKE an the sensor, the signal circuit will be drawn to a logic level = High, then the DME/IKE assume short to positive, when in fact the fuel level sensor circuit is compromised as "open". The good news is BMW fuel level senders are known to fail often, the resistive wiper become intermittent, so I will just replace the fuel sender and see what happens. I have no plans on tearing the wiring harness out of my car over this issue!

2. Logging fault codes is the key to diagnosis. Start a written log and keep it in the car with the date, mileage, codes triggered, and a comment about under what conditions the CEL lit. Things like; fuel level (right on your dashboard and in your hidden OBC menu), Battery and/or charging Voltage (Hidden OBC menu), Outside temp (right on your dashboard), engine temp (on dashboard and hidden OBC menu), how long you had been driving the car, how you were driving the car (stop and go, highway, full throttle run, mild cruise, etc), and any other commends like even elevation (right on GPS). So you can see if you have a Peake reader or some other code reader in the car, all other data points are easily available.

Logging fault codes generators history that you can look back on for other clues for difficult and/or intermittent problems.

3. I am a firm believer that you should read the trouble codes ASAP once the CEL triggers. Sometimes depending on what the codes are, you may want to clear the codes, sometimes you want to log the codes, not clear them and see if additional codes appear on top of the first codes. This is just one way I like to troubleshoot some problems. Everyone may have different approaches to this, but depending on what code(s) shows up and what tool I am using, I may take a different path to clear and address the situation.

Not that I suggest everyone do this, or that what I do is a "good" idea, but I am very proficient at hooking up my Peake reader @ 70+ MPH to check and clear codes if necessary. My exhaust has been cut and leaks slightly after the Post Cat O2 sensors, I get regular Cat Inefficiency codes, this is a fact, I know what causes them and I know not to worry about them. But when traveling, if my CEL pops on, I do not get excited, I find a stretch of road that is straight and not busy, plug the Peake in read the codes, if they are the codes I have memorized in my head for Cat Inefficiency, I clear the codes at 70 MPH, unplug everything an keep driving without a worry. If I was to pull codes I did not recognize, I would pull over and document everything, check the Peake book for the codes and then decided if the problem is something that needs to be addressed or if I should continue on.

4. BMW has some of what I call "Red Herring" codes that may misdirect your thought process. Some of what I consider as "Red Herring" codes are Coolant Temp Plausibility, Misfire With Low Fuel, Fuel Pump Relay and there are a few others.

Coolant Temp Plausibility in my opinion is sometimes triggered by O2 sensor related codes. I had this shortly after I had to replace a failed Tstat. I was actually watching actively for 2 weeks my coolant temp with the hidden OBC menu. The coolant temp was exactly as it should have been. But on a stretch of highway at 50 MPH with little to no load going down a slight grade, I triggered the CEL, Cat Inefficiency codes popped up, due to the exhaust leaks as mentioned above, however, I believe that the Coolant Temp Plausibility was triggered due to the history of the bad stat and the DME being programmed to note the engine temp may cause O2 related faults. This only happened to me just shortly after the Tstat was replaced, so I clearly believe this Coolant Temp Plausibility is nothing more than an Flag that you may or may not want to pay attention to?

Misfire With Low Fuel - I have this one time and my car had a full tank of fuel. I assume that this code can be triggered based upon fuel level and/or in conjunction with possibly monitoring the O2 sensors for a specific very lean trend?? Again, a Flag you should ultimately pay attention to, but you may not want to consider an over reaction to this code?

Fuel Pump Relay - As mentioned before, the DME/IKE and other modules have shunt resistors to monitor or supervise some of the circuits. The the problem is a fuel pump failure (commutator not making a proper connection) will trigger a false Fuel Pump Relay trouble code. Again, I think BMW missed the idea here where they could have incorporated a small resistor within the fuel pump itself and they could easily distinguish between the fuel pump, relay or wiring between the relay and the fuel pump! Somewhere I read that this was an error with translating the code from German as a relay and not a pump, but from my point of view if this was grammatical error that has propagate though out the industry, it is still a "Red Herring".

So in summary, document, watch and think about what is happening. Not a bad idea you had your TPS's replaced, these cars are 10+ years old and without good sensor input, the engine management cannot do its job correctly. So hopefully this was your problem and it has been resolved, if not you have a Peake reader, just start to gather data.

You AA reading has no impact on the overall driveability of the car, learn to live with it or get a Evolve or other tune that you can request the SAP system codes be ignored. I would never spend the money or time to pull the cylinder heads to clean out carbon due to AA codes. Not sure it will help, but many others claim SeaFoam poured into the SAP supply hose can over time clear up some of the carbon and possible AA codes, but it might not be something that can soften and clear up after many years of build up.

Good luck and hopefully your TPS related issues are resolved.
 
#20 ·
True. Any OBD II code is a starting point. In my replies, I started to get into the TPSs because the Peake codes indicated that was the issue. I purchased the sensors, then got into it. But, once the plenum was off---I found---wait for it---


a MOUSE NEST the size of a grapefruit right at the throttle motor. :eek7:

Ya think that may interfere with the throttle position?

Anyway, while in there, I replaced the TPSs and cleaned the throttles anyway since they were considerably gunked up after 160K...after I was able to restart it runs smoother than ever.

So the Peake codes likely prevented a fire...Just sayin'
 
#21 ·
MM, you are about the 6th guy in the past year that have been under the spell of the mouse!!!

I have heard about mice causing problems with airbags because of nesting under the console, problems on top of the gas tank with chewing fuel vapor lines, and other issues!

Have found many a BMW with nuts and other things on top of the gas tank!

Not sure what the mouse has for BMW's and especially the M5!
 
#24 ·
Subscribing due to some code chasing. Good intell James.