Deleting the Secondary Air Pump (SAP). Effects on the Beast..... - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums
E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 1998-2003 Advertiser's Forum

 14Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
timmay77
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
timmay77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Age: 38
Posts: 6,589
Thanks: 1,836
Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,075 Posts
Deleting the Secondary Air Pump (SAP). Effects on the Beast.....

Ok, I know this has been discussed in depth, but I want an up to date opinion from those that are in the know. I am hoping all of the S62 gurus will give some input and put this query to rest. I will be getting a CAI kit soon, I hope, and have been stressing over what to do about the SAP. Of course the option to turn it upside down is always there, but what if I wanted to delete it all together?

Here is a thread I have been reading to get a little insight.

Help: Cold air intake install

These are the posts that I am worried about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E55AMG2 View Post
I did it by accident, when I installed my Dinan CAI. Thats how I found out. Active Autowerke sold some resistors for E36's with TU engines for exactly that purpose. Im sure someone here can dig up the specs on what the DME is looking for in terms of resistance and make some up. The only issue is that the engine will continue to fuel as if the SAP was still there during warm up causing a super rich condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by russap5 View Post
I don't think any more fuel is injected during the 2 minute period. All the secondary air system is doing is adding air to the exhaust gasses so that they burn off more of the fuel in the rich mix since the engine isn't warm enough yet to do it itself. Without the SAP the exhaust is just a little richer than usual, for 2 minutes..

I could definitely be wrong, but I don't think there is any change in engine management. In this case it is only an issue for the environment..
Quote:
Originally Posted by E55AMG2 View Post
Fuel will be burning into the exhaust and damage the cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E55AMG2 View Post
I did it by accident, when I installed my Dinan CAI. Thats how I found out. Active Autowerke sold some resistors for E36's with TU engines for exactly that purpose. Im sure someone here can dig up the specs on what the DME is looking for in terms of resistance and make some up. The only issue is that the engine will continue to fuel as if the SAP was still there during warm up causing a super rich condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by russap5 View Post
I don't think any more fuel is injected during the 2 minute period. All the secondary air system is doing is adding air to the exhaust gasses so that they burn off more of the fuel in the rich mix since the engine isn't warm enough yet to do it itself. Without the SAP the exhaust is just a little richer than usual, for 2 minutes..

I could definitely be wrong, but I don't think there is any change in engine management. In this case it is only an issue for the environment..
Quote:
Originally Posted by russap5 View Post
Yea that's the only possible downside. I for one don't give a rats @$$ about cats..

I still want to see if there is a way to use the software to get rid of the fault code from removing the SAP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E55AMG2 View Post
You might as well get the entire cold start changed at that point. I wonder if Evolve can help...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAD TA WS6 View Post
You guys aren't getting the MAIN thing here... You aren't going to complete Readiness Monitors for OBD testing with ANYONES software. I fought with ESS for this exact reason, only due to some confusion between our emails.

Even if they delete the codes for Inadequate Air Flow, you still won't complete the test for OBDII monitoring. So when it comes time for OBDII testing (required in most States) you will not pass. And if you do, you will only pass with 1 readiness monitor incomplete (Secondary Air). Basically, you're Secondary Air systemm will always show up as "Not Ready."

Very annoying, I've been working on this for years. I can cure the issue on E46 cars, as I have with our Continental Tire Challenge car. But I do not have the chassis codes to do so on any other car.


As for an above post referring to "Euro Shops" being able to disable the SAP, that is incorrect. GT1, SSS, AutoLogic, yadda yadda yadda... NONE of the above (most powerfull) diagnostic equipment will turn off any such code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by russap5 View Post
Thanks for the info. So you're saying none of the ESS S/C cars will pass a standard state inspection?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAD TA WS6 View Post
Well they aren't going to pass Secondary Air readiness. So thats 1 monitor. It varies state to state, depending on year.

In NH, up to 2001, you are allowed 2 monitors "Not Ready". 2002+ and you are allowed 1 monitor. So if you aren't running cats, and the efficiency codes are deleted (no check engine light, but you still won't complete OBDII readiness for the cat) you are SOL if you also deleted the air pump.

For example, on my Trans Am, I can spend $400 bucks on tuning software, and do whatever I want. No cats, no evap, no secondary air, no heated O2s, etc. And I can still pass with flying colors, and be undetectable computer/OBDII wise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by E55AMG2 View Post
Exactly, you'd need to actually change the code in the DME, GT1 (or any other programmer) can't do that.

PS,

Peter, I know we already discussed this, I thought it would be nice to share what you and I discussed privately...... IF you are ok with that....



2001 Jet Black/Executive Black
///
M5 ("M CINCO") current mods and accessories:

~ RMS Stage 2 SC Kit with a Fabtech-Performance Heat Exchanger
~ Tuned by Tuning Tech FS - 590hp 504lbstq at the rear wheels
~ AEM methanol injection system

~ Complete aftermarket stereo system w/Alpine INA-W910/PXA-H800, Rear Camera,
Hybrid Audio Technologies L831 speakers
~ UUC V12 clutch kit with segmented kevlar clutch disc
~ Custom crank case ventilation system
~ Cutsom dual electric radiator fan set up
~ BIP headers
~ Muffler delete with ///M5 - MCINCO etched "Timmay Tips" LOL

~ Dinan 3.45 rear differential
~ Remote oil thermostat/Setrab oil cooler
~ (4) Dinan 18x9.5" wheels

~ Brembo BBK 355F/345R
~
BC Racing coil overs (10k/8k) ~ Powerflex thrust arm & inner track arm bushings ~ Dinan RSB ~ Beastpower RSB brackets
~
Slimmbones finned rear diffuser, XL fog light covers, trunk spoiler, and front lip spoiler.


Tim ~ email: HallmanTL (at) gmail (dot) com
timmay77 is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to timmay77 For This Useful Post:
cura (9th October 2012)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:42 PM
rao
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 5,495
Thanks: 154
Thanked 1,229 Times in 850 Posts
Don't stress, this one is easy.

Unless you have the ability to modify the ECU programming to eliminate the entire system that is dealing with the air pump, don't even think about removing it. If you live in a state that has OBD II testing and you decide to have the ECU reprogrammed, MAKE SURE that whoever the magician is knows about readiness flags and makes sure that your will be properly set, otherwise you are in for trouble. Given what I know about the state of M5 ECU tuning, I would relocate the pump, it is not that big of a deal.

If you find this post unsatisfactory, please add me to your Ignore List so you will not be disappointed again in the future.

---> http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/pro...?do=ignorelist

Rob

Current - 98 540i with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 power - Build Thread
Old - 92 325i with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 Power
Older - 95 M3 with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 Power
rao is online now  
post #3 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:42 PM
mattmartindrift
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
mattmartindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Baltimore, Md
Posts: 4,896
Thanks: 297
Thanked 1,057 Times in 734 Posts
OBD2 is the downside, I think that's all there is to it.

you either fool the system into believing the SAP is there, or accept the 1 or 2 not-ready codes.
mattmartindrift is offline  
post #4 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:44 PM
rao
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 5,495
Thanks: 154
Thanked 1,229 Times in 850 Posts
Fooling the ECU is not a bad way to go either, but it is so inelegant in an M5

If you find this post unsatisfactory, please add me to your Ignore List so you will not be disappointed again in the future.

---> http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/pro...?do=ignorelist

Rob

Current - 98 540i with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 power - Build Thread
Old - 92 325i with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 Power
Older - 95 M3 with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 Power

Last edited by rao; 30th August 2011 at 04:45 PM.
rao is online now  
post #5 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:45 PM
ECB
M5 Guru (>2000 posts)
 
ECB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,359
Thanks: 55
Thanked 437 Times in 273 Posts
Mine was deleted with the ESS kit 2 years ago. I have passed NC inspection twice since our state allows one 'not ready'. I cannot comment on its effect to the cats or the environment. I'm assuming ESS would have considered any potential ill effects on the car, but who knows.

03 M5 Titanium Silver/Black Luxury/Burl Walnut
ESS VT 550 S/C 92mm pulley, Supersprint headers and Race cats, Eisenmann Sport Exhaust, RK Autowerks/Evolve tune,
Aquamist HFS-3 water methanol injection, Rogue SSK w/ RP Synchromax fluid, fog light delete,
H&R Springs, Dinan 17mm rear sway bar, TCD sway bar brackets, Ultimate Pedals, Euro Armrest,
Hardwired V1, Angel iBrights v.2, 6000K Low beams, 70W High beams, Hella Supertones, BSW Speaker Upgrade & 10" Sub, Dension IceLink

04 M3 Jet Black/Black Nappa/6 spd
Evolve Alpha-N tune, SGT Headers, Supersprint Resonated Sect. 2, Eisenmann Race Muffler
VAC pullies, Rogue SSK, H&R springs, Koni Yellows
ECB is offline  
post #6 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
timmay77
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
timmay77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Age: 38
Posts: 6,589
Thanks: 1,836
Thanked 2,048 Times in 1,075 Posts
We do not have inspections in Ohio, not a concern for me, but may be for other members.



2001 Jet Black/Executive Black
///
M5 ("M CINCO") current mods and accessories:

~ RMS Stage 2 SC Kit with a Fabtech-Performance Heat Exchanger
~ Tuned by Tuning Tech FS - 590hp 504lbstq at the rear wheels
~ AEM methanol injection system

~ Complete aftermarket stereo system w/Alpine INA-W910/PXA-H800, Rear Camera,
Hybrid Audio Technologies L831 speakers
~ UUC V12 clutch kit with segmented kevlar clutch disc
~ Custom crank case ventilation system
~ Cutsom dual electric radiator fan set up
~ BIP headers
~ Muffler delete with ///M5 - MCINCO etched "Timmay Tips" LOL

~ Dinan 3.45 rear differential
~ Remote oil thermostat/Setrab oil cooler
~ (4) Dinan 18x9.5" wheels

~ Brembo BBK 355F/345R
~
BC Racing coil overs (10k/8k) ~ Powerflex thrust arm & inner track arm bushings ~ Dinan RSB ~ Beastpower RSB brackets
~
Slimmbones finned rear diffuser, XL fog light covers, trunk spoiler, and front lip spoiler.


Tim ~ email: HallmanTL (at) gmail (dot) com
timmay77 is online now  
post #7 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 04:53 PM
rao
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 5,495
Thanks: 154
Thanked 1,229 Times in 850 Posts
If you are worried about the rich mixture upon cold startup destroying the cats - don't.

If you find this post unsatisfactory, please add me to your Ignore List so you will not be disappointed again in the future.

---> http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/pro...?do=ignorelist

Rob

Current - 98 540i with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 power - Build Thread
Old - 92 325i with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 Power
Older - 95 M3 with Chevy 6.6 LS2/T-56 Power
rao is online now  
The Following User Says Thank You to rao For This Useful Post:
herrubermensch (31st August 2011)
post #8 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 05:08 PM
Sailor24
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
Sailor24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cobourg Ont
Age: 53
Posts: 6,141
Thanks: 878
Thanked 1,281 Times in 1,026 Posts
You are obviously aware of the Not ready issue, not an issue if the rest of the car is in top shape as yours is. The "what" this system does is get the cat working faster. It is very much like blowing on a fire that is just an ember. If you look at how many cars have this system plugged, if something bad was going to happen you would know about it already. Guy's throwing the AA code don't come back a year later and say my cats are done.

Mine is plugged on one bank and it is my intention to plumb directly to my new headers, but the headers would be on the car if I would just skip this idea. I do believe the SAP brings the whole engine up to temp faster and as far as I'm concerned that is a very good thing. That and that alone is a good enough reason to fix or keep the system. I am sure you have heard the old adage of X% of wear on an engine occurs during warm up. I figure the faster you get it up to temp the better.
Sailor24 is online now  
post #9 of 53 Old 30th August 2011, 08:06 PM
tacoma330ci
Company Representative for RK Autowerks
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,851
Thanks: 240
Thanked 423 Times in 292 Posts
For those that are worried about OBDII readiness it can be reinstalled pretty fast before your inspection, then removed again. Reinstall it a week or so before so the readiness monitors can reset...

In Washington we can have 1 not ready for 03 and newer, the 01's and 02's can have 2 not ready and pass...

Sounds like in Ohio, you don't need to sweat it... and if you're worried about your cats, just remove those too!
tacoma330ci is offline  
post #10 of 53 Old 31st August 2011, 02:45 AM
herrubermensch
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
herrubermensch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York
Age: 49
Posts: 7,429
Thanks: 4,392
Thanked 2,390 Times in 1,358 Posts
What RAO said; no worries about your cats or the temporarily rich mixture. I should have such problems! Oy vez!

Just delete it and have PC or Evolve program the ECU to ignore the error. You'll be fine.

--Peter

The Beast
2001 E39 M5 LeMans Blue with Black/Blue Sport Interior and Titanium Trim with some great mods and a blown, balanced and blueprinted S62
herrubermensch is online now  
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Deleting the secondary air pump after powerchip + using circuit to run cooling fan. jfman E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 11 15th August 2011 09:01 PM
Secondary Air Pump? saeero F10 M5 Discussion 4 11th August 2011 05:29 PM
E39 For Sale: E39 secondary air pump. rated ///M Parts / Other For Sale or Wanted 2 27th July 2011 03:00 PM
Secondary air pump code still comes up after replacing the pump.. greekspeed E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 23 28th February 2011 02:47 PM
New pre cat 02 sensors, secondary air pump, mafs, fuel pump and filter = 1 happy S2!! madyspop E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 0 12th February 2011 04:37 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome