from the description of modifications, your numbers make a lot of sense (i never could believe Nowack's numbers, particularly torque) -- it would still be interesting to get some performance numbers from your car -- 1/4 mi, or even easier 50-80 in 3rd and 4th gears (numbers that matter most in the U.S. real world
with the relatively peaky engine, i'd really recommend switching to the 3.45 diff to take advantage of it -- Dinan indicated that he was going to give up a little torque to get 470 hp and intended the 3.45 as part of the package
so maybe we're getting close to a comparison of Dinan's SAE numbers versus Nowack's Deutsche Invented Numbers
One point that is important to understand is that although peak HP/TQ numbers may look impressive on paper, the real benefits in moding an engine come from trying to maximize the area under the HP/TQ curves. Therefore, some cars with less peak power can in fact totally blow away others that have such narrow peak gains if their hp/tq has been increased over a broader RPM range. This is what most engine builders are trying to achieve, not just a spike in a narrow RPM band. I definitely think you have a serious bone to pick with them; good luck in your follow-up discussions.
Originally posted by Johnny D This confirms my theory that BMW didn't leave a lot of extra horsepower on the table so to speak. I would be surprised if any of these tuners with their limited vs BMW budgets would have any breakthroughs. Either it will cause premature wear or failure, cost too much vs the gain, or affect driveability to some extent. That said, I'm sure to draw some flames.
Draw flames? Of course you deserve to be flamed! BMW has thrown huge amounts of power on the floor by not using forced air induction, and you will see this fixed in the E60 (finally!): Autoweek says the 3L engine inline six will get 385bhp, thanks to its twin turbo units, i.e., the STANDARD 5-series engine will be very close to the M5.
Apples, as for your car, it seems that you need a mild amount of boost on the intakes. Could you attach a pressure measuring transducer and see (a) how much boost do the leaf blowers give you, and then compare to (b) what the M5 gets at various speeds? Intuitively, I fear that the car will not have lots of pressure increase as you go faster, but it might be the case----at least enough to rival the leaf blower?
Good luck on your M5, Apples! Despite the fact that Nowack seem to be exaggerating, you still do have one of the fastest M5s in the world. I'd see if you can get a fair amount of money back, and then not worry about it.
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I'm glad that (as all here I'm sure) you're happy with the car the way it is, no matter the numbers. Again, as with chip tuning, we can only 'feel' the difference more than measuring it (or at least, what matters is how we feel the car after the mods).
Having said that, the explanation given to you sounds like somebody is trying to get you to realize that you should have read the small print...BS!
However, I remember when Kawasaki released their ZZR 1100 bike (1991): it had the RAM-AIR system, and they (Kawasaki) stated clearly that their HP claim (160) was based with their air-ram functioning, that is, while the bike was above 140 mph. Nobody could really know (how could we?), but the bike felt a lot more stronger from 140 and up. Again, it is a feeling more than a readout. My (tuned) Suzuki was measured at 164 hp, but the Kawa could pull away (easily) from abt. 170 mph, wich was a fair indication that the gained hp were there, just unmeasurable in terms of dynoing the bike...
No matter what, the N500 is not only a ram-air system attached to the engine, neither should cost that much and requiere so much trouble for the customer, somewhat I think customers are mislead to a fantasy land, figures that are not real, not even in the Autobahn. I'm sure that their german customers would not allow this to happen, they would have them (Nowack) to either deliver their claimed 500 hp or else they'd pretty soon be in trouble.
Oh well, the main question for you to ask yourself is if you'd do it all over again to have the car the way it is now. If yes, your money was well spent, if the answer is no, Nowack should be told and have the chance to deliver what they promised or send (some) money back to you.
Marcelo
Originally posted by Bart Carter My 2 cents: It sounds like fraud. If this happened to me, I would be posting on every site in the Universe on how I was scammed.
I agree with Bart. How can you claim 500hp and not even be close, actually losing hp at lower rpms. Those test conditions are shaddy at best. How could they claim all the HP in conditions that could never be achieved on US roads. No offense apples but, I would rather have a stock M5. At the speeds I travel and 0-60, 40-80 I am better off. What a bunch of jerks Demand your money back and go for the Dinan upgrades. Although very expensive, I bet their hp claims will be right on. I have been very critical of Steve Dinan's price gouging but, in light of Nowacks behavior, maybe I should take my foot out of my mouth. At least with Dinan you get what is advertised. Just my two cents.
Draw flames? Of course you deserve to be flamed! BMW has thrown huge amounts of power on the floor by not using forced air induction,.
Exactly how much would you estimate "huge amounts of power" to be???
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Adam- Apple's description of his car's power curve also reminded me of Gustav's Nowack test drive. My guess is that his car is tuned almost identically to that one.
My oppinion of this whole situation is that very few tuners exist that can tune a car to run as reliably and smoothly as the factory can. The significant dips in power and torque that you are seeing are probably the result of the VANOS system disagreeing with the Nowack cam profiles. The vanos is designed to work spefically with the factory camshafts, and it doesn't sound like Nowack was able to reprogram the system to work correctly. While you definitely see an increase in top-end power, the midrange suffers.
Unfortunately this is the tradeoff that you often see with modern engine tuning, and the reason I will never significantly modify any of my cars.
Last edited by Andrew2.8L; 21st May 2002 at 00:38.
APPLES: Here is my guess looking at your graphs. Nowack have shortened the intake runners and added some mild cams along with some exhaust improvements. This is why the curve down low has several peaks. Nowack have rocked the TQ curve around TQ peak and lost TQ down low and gained HP on top.
eaf blowers on the intake is not going to duplicate true airflow at speed. They simply do not have enough airflow.
For your M5 to have true 500HP at the crank translates into 425 at the wheels (425/0.85=500) The loss is around 15%.
My recommendation at this point is to go with 3:45 rear end to reduce the effect of low end TQ loss.
vadim- my thoughts exactly. i was thinking about mentioning that their intake prolly has shortened and ported runners, but i decided to keep it simple and just state the outcome.. otherwise- you are spot on. i can only add that they also seem to have computer issues at lower rpms (not hard to imagine since the full-throttle routines in any car computer are the easiest to tune properly. the part-throttle/lower rpm fuel tables are the tricky ones..
kgk- your thinking is flawed. you cant just assume that if 1 liter engine makes 1000 hp then a 5 liter engine can make 5000 hp. it doesnt quite work that way. i will not go into explaining why, but i will just tell you that it has something to do with rotational mass and modern metalurgy...
BMW has thrown huge amounts of power on the floor by not using forced air induction, and you will see this fixed in the E60 (finally!): Autoweek says the 3L engine inline six will get 385bhp, thanks to its twin turbo units, i.e., the STANDARD 5-series engine will be very close to the M5.
Demand your money back and go for the Dinan upgrades. Although very expensive, I bet their hp claims will be right on. I have been very critical of Steve Dinan's price gouging but, in light of Nowacks behavior, maybe I should take my foot out of my mouth. At least with Dinan you get what is advertised. Just my two cents. 
otherwise- you are spot on. i can only add that they also seem to have computer issues at lower rpms (not hard to imagine since the full-throttle routines in any car computer are the easiest to tune properly. the part-throttle/lower rpm fuel tables are the tricky ones.. 
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