TECH: attention, clutch afficianados.... - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Teutonaddict · 8th May 2002, 14:42

I had been an occasional, somewhat disinterested participant in the history of clutch discussion on this board. Suffice it to say I've suddenly become interested. I did a thorough print-out-and-read-thru of the various clutch threads, and now I have some questions of my own. I'd appreciate any sage advice of fellow clutch victims.

Here's some background: 02/00 production, currently 37K miles, only powertrain mod being Supersprint x-pipe and exhaust. I've driven manual transmission cars virtually exclusively for the last 20 years for over 350,000 miles. In fact, my last four cars were V8 + man-trans BMW 5ers. As a matter of practice, I adhere to the techniques demonstrated in greg's how-to videos to the letter. However, I don't want this to be a discussion of fault or blame; rather, what are my options for a suitable replacement.

Since I raised the issue of clutch slippage to my Authorized Service Center before the Beast turned 36K, there's still a possibility of warranty repair (yeah, right!). As such, I'd like a little info on that:

Two of the threads mentioned component changes in the clutch that took place as of 05/00; something about upgrading the plastic self-adjusting mechanism. A memo was also mentioned.

Q: Did anyone ever learn more about this service memo or its conditions?
Bottom line, has the clutch changed materially since my 02/00 production model?

Now, if warranty repair is NOT an option, I'm not going to replace a dead clutch with another stock unit. It sounds like McLeod and Centerforce are two solid options.

Q: Where did we end up on the McLeod or Centerforce clutch discussion?

Precisely what new OEM parts does each need to remanufacture an upgraded clutch?

How much $$$ are we talking?

I'd be willing to be the guinea pig on this one if nobody's done it yet. I can baby the wounded clutch long enough to have them make me a bionic one!

Q: Does anyone have direct, personal experience with an aftermarket E39 M5 clutch?

If so, I'd love to hear your experiences.

That should do me for now. TIA for your thoughts!
-Dave

CM5GO · 8th May 2002, 15:50

We never went forward with the Centerforce group buy because they were not really willing to do any significant group discount.

I still believe strongly in their product. If I remember correctly they wanted us to send them a stock clutch assembly and 3 or 4 hundred bucks and they would make their strengthened version.

I would love to hear the feedback if you go ahead and do it. I will likely do the same in the future.

How would you do it if the clutch is replaced under warranty? Do you think they would just give you the clutch to send out and then install it for you when you get it back? I have my doubts that they would do that.

Keep me posted. I have been waiting to find out about this.

thebishman · 8th May 2002, 21:32

Dave,
My area service rep. told me that there had been a change to at least one of the clutch components in 5/00.
However, with 37K miles on your car, good luck getting a new clutch under warranty. I had to appeal all the way up the 'corporate ladder' when my clutch went out at 9K miles. They did finally pay, but I initially had to spring for the $1500.
Take care, keep us informed what you decide to do, re: aftermarket clutches, etc.
thebishman

Teutonaddict · 8th May 2002, 21:45

Quote:

Originally posted by thebishman
My area service rep. told me that there had been a change to at least one of the clutch components in 5/00.
However, with 37K miles on your car, good luck getting a new clutch under warranty.

thebishman-

Thanks for the confirmation of the component change. I'm having my current Service Advisor research that one.

I realize 37K is beyond the Full Maintenance Protection Program that BMW introduced in the MY2000. However, I identified my concern to the dealer well before passing that threshold. I believe the hesitation and throttle response problems I was experiencing masked the ready identification of clutch slippage. The dealer said (before 36K miles) they were "unable to duplicate" my clutch symptoms.

FWIW, here's some text from the email I received from BMWNA in September, 1999 regarding their Full Maintenance Protection Program:
"Woodcliff Lake, New Jersey, September 1, 1999
BMW of North America, Inc. announced today that the BMW Full Maintenance Protection Program will be included at no additional cost for 3 years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first, on all 2000 models. This program includes all factory recommended maintenance as listed in the BMW Service and Warranty Information booklet, plus the replacement of wear and tear items such as brake linings, brake rotors, engine drive belts and wiper blades. Adjustments, which are required due to normal operating conditions are also covered." [emphasis added]

Diamond Dave · 9th May 2002, 00:24

Dave,

In my eyes, your dealer coming back with "unable to duplicate the problem" while your car was still under warranty is totally unacceptable. I've been told by many a Master Tech at Classic BMW here in Richardson that each and every dealer walks the fine line of what to warranty and what not to warranty. If for example a dealer is giving away too many freebies when compared to the average of all the other dealers nationwide, as we say here in Texas "they get a talkin'-to". I'd bet my wife (

) that internally there is some talk about the clutch not being engineered to match the power of the car - especially over a long life complete with a modicum of spirited driving.

After I was given the line of "unable to duplicate crap" on previous BMWs I requested (nicely) that both the tech and SA come out for a drive with ME behind the wheel. I've also gone so far as to tape a mic to various parts of the car and record the mysterious noise on my MiniDisc player. Understanding in your case that it's not noise related per se, but rather a performance issue that you being the owner can duplicate - it's your car and you know it better than anyone, right?

I wish you well here in your quest to repair this problem. At least you were sharp enough to bring the problem to their attention BEFORE the warranty expired and that hopefully you've kept that paperwork. This could very well get messy.

My best to you,

DWP

Teutonaddict · 9th May 2002, 01:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Diamond Dave
I've been told by many a Master Tech at Classic BMW here in Richardson that each and every dealer walks the fine line of what to warranty and what not to warranty. If for example a dealer is giving away too many freebies when compared to the average of all the other dealers nationwide, as we say here in Texas "they get a talkin'-to".

You're absolutely right, Dave! I learned this very fact before my clutch dilemma: I wore my original rotors down to below spec before the 36K mile cutoff. When I took it in and requested replacement, it was denied because of non-OEM pads (Mintex Red Box). Nevermind the fact that 30,000 miles prior, I paid the dealership to install these very pads, and they never once mentioned voided rotor warranty when they took my money!

The service manager's explanation was as follows: if BMW audits this vehicle's history and sees that I replaced under warranty after installing aftermarket pads, then not only will they debit our account for that job (he said, for example, $350), but they would "dock us" for every similar job we've performed. His point being that a $350 goodwill service could cost the dealership $7,000. So he wouldn't budge. And he lost a customer.

Coincidentally, this is the same dealership that was "unable to replicate" my clutch problem--conveniently for them--at about 35,800 miles!! You're right, warranty coverage may be a long shot, but I've been jacked around so much I'm gonna take this one to the mat. I'll let you know how it goes.

-Dave

bobafett · 9th May 2002, 04:57

Sorry, skimmed through the thread, but as a clutch repairee (many times over, I'm afriad), I can say this: doesn't matter if they can't replicate it. They shouldn't have to, nor do you want them to. You brought it up, they didn't do ****, now it got worse. Clutches don't get better, they only stay the same or get worse.

That said, they will give you grief, but both you and they know you complained ahead of time, and so they should honor it.

As far as the clutch, yes it did change from 2/00 (I had a 2/00 build as well). I don't remember what the changes were (I have all of the documents stashed away, let me know if you want me to look into it).

Supposedly mine was amongst the first in the country with the "slippage" and so they were a bit confused. What i was told is that I ended up with a "modified Z8 clutch." I think, however, form discussion that we determined the clutches are the same in both cars (no reason they shouldn't be).

No experience with the aftermarket ones, sorry.

--Dan

atomic80 · 9th May 2002, 05:36

There was one other thread that discussed the fact that our clutches are manufactured by Sachs. My point leads to the fact that Sachs apparently has two different performance clutches in addition to the M5 OEM clutch manufactured by Sachs. A fellow member, 540is was going to be the first to try the uprated clutch but last I heard he was still waiting for the clutch to come in.

Nish · 9th May 2002, 05:50

Quote:

Originally posted by bobafett
Sorry, skimmed through the thread, but as a clutch repairee (many times over, I'm afriad), I can say this: doesn't matter if they can't replicate it. They shouldn't have to, nor do you want them to. You brought it up, they didn't do ****, now it got worse. Clutches don't get better, they only stay the same or get worse.

That said, they will give you grief, but both you and they know you complained ahead of time, and so they should honor it.

As far as the clutch, yes it did change from 2/00 (I had a 2/00 build as well). I don't remember what the changes were (I have all of the documents stashed away, let me know if you want me to look into it).

Supposedly mine was amongst the first in the country with the "slippage" and so they were a bit confused. What i was told is that I ended up with a "modified Z8 clutch." I think, however, form discussion that we determined the clutches are the same in both cars (no reason they shouldn't be).

No experience with the aftermarket ones, sorry.

--Dan

I would also think that both cars would have the same clutch. After driving both cars you couldn't prove it by me. The clutch in the Z8 seems a lot "smoother". The clutch in my M5 seems to be slightly touchy. Just my .02 worth.

Al

VanCooper · 9th May 2002, 05:59

My father's car is a 1/00 build with 40 000 kilometers and severe clutch slippage has just started to appearlast Sunday. While driving on the highway at a normal pace, any time I would press down the gas pedal to pass a car, there would be a noticeable (and I mean 1.5 second long noticeable) clutch slipping before the power finally hooked and lunged the car forward. (and I wasn't downshifting to pass either)

As soon as that started to happen, I rode her gently home and parked it in the garage. My father is coming back to town tonight and I will discuss with him about it. I already gave our dealership a call and they said to call roadside assistance to get the car towed to the service dept. and that they would take a look at it

Will keep you guys updated