.....You know, we will never know. If I had my head screwed on tight (Not a word Raza) I would have measured before I did any of the work. IF it did, it was minimal at best. It would seem that I should have gained some since the collecotrs are pushed at an upwards motion though huh?
Should have measured before I started wrenching...sorry.
lulz!
those headers should have .25 of gap at the top. trust me i stayed at a holiday inn last night. but no seriously, thats what they should have because i owned those things at one point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by havasusteve03Beast
1/8th"...Thats what I gained from the motor mounts and tranny mount change. I dont regret the change having 80,000 miles. Most certainly wish I would have seen more. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
Steve
you didnt really "gain" anything, the mounts on the e39 dont "compress" they just "give" out if that makes any sense. the 1/8th wont be noticable in a month after the mounts have settled in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Gilli Supersprint
Steve, your headers really look to be very low to the ground.
I am surprised that the new engine mounts did not help dramatically.
On a sidenote, having added those welded flanges between the collectors' ends and the cats also does not help with the clearance, as they make the exhaust more prone to catch against fixed road objects, pulling the collectors out in the process. But this is not exactly the cause of the problem, as the headers sit too low, regardless.
By looking at the photos and the videos from our in-house R&D tech files, these headers are designed to run very close to the chassis, away from the ground; the clearance against the heatshield on both cilynder bank sides is a small as 10mm (less than 1/2") in some places.
At the opposite ends, the lowest sections of the headers actually sit much further away from the ground, than what you are currently experiencing.
Since 2001, we have sold close to one thousand Supersprint E39 M5 headers, worldwide, and they all fit properly and run strong.
Over the years we also have installed a few headers on some local customers' cars, here at our shop, and also on Gustav's own M5, and really did not notice a single problem.
I will talk to the exhaust factory shop guys, and see what they suggest you to do, in order gain the proper clearance.
Alessandro Gilli
Supersprint
Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Gilli Supersprint
Steve, the first thing the shop guys noticed from the photos, is that they believe that the collectors actually must be slid in, even further. They feel like the 4-1 collectors may not be bottoming out against the 8 primaries' ends yet.
However, this is a speculation, based solely upon the amount of the enlarged (step up) pipe section they can see, sticking out from the floating, 4-hole flange plate.
I believe you when you say that you already have pushed the collectors all the way in; but there still my be some way to go, regardless of the resistence you feel when forcing the collectors further in.
The pipe junctions may have an overlapping section sticking, or seizing, in some place, which keeps the collectors from slidind all the way in.
Anyway, I will do some more dimension checks on the headers jigs, as well as on the original project blue-prints, to make sure that the production headers are still within spec.
Speaking of the flanges you have added, I perfectly justify your goal, about the ease of switching the cats back and forth, with the minimum effort; but a slip-on connection would be less obtrusive in terms of ground clearance, although the removal certainly would not be as easy and straightforward, as with the 2-bolt flanges.
When designing exhausts, the slip-on and the flange connection systems both have pros and cons, depending on the individual area of the exhaust.
An additional plus of the slip-on over the flange system, in this particular place, is that it allows fine tuning the overall lenght of the exhaust system, between the individual sections, while the flanges limit the entire exhaust to a fixed, non-adjustable and very rigid position.
If you find out that your cats actually put a tension on the headers collectors, and pull them backwards, you should have them checked, cut-off and re-welded into a more correct, neutral position.
I will get back to you with more infos, as soon as the checks are done.
Have a nice weekend.
Alessandro Gilli
Supersprint
Italy
all of the supersprint headers have the issue, its just not as noticable for guys with stock suspension ride. most of the folks complaining itt are ones with aftermarket suspension. the SS headers with stock ride barely get away with routine driving.
i can guarantee you all of the headers you guys make are nearly identical and all of them are the same. i know of the 2 design variations, MAYBE a third, cant remember off the top of my head. but the 3 sets i owned all had lousy clearance. the issue could be relatively easily resolved with making the pipes quarter inch short at the collector, and then shortening the physical pipes in the middle a quarter inch as well. you might run into clearence issues with the body doing that though. for a friends m5 we hacked up his SS headers to make them fit. we ended doing that along with cutting the pipe at the bend right before the collector, shortening the pipe on the left of the bend an inch iirc and we were able to gain nearly and inch in clearence. that brought the clearence to roughly 4" and the lowest part of the car was still the exhaust setup, but only by a quarter inch.
it was a lot of work but we had a lift, welder, and angle grinder.
take that for what its worth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by havasusteve03Beast
How old/new are your headers? I noticed in the 1st pic, you have a brace of some sort that bolts the collector to the pipes. Mine doesnt have that FYI. If I could get the collector up onto the pipe as much as yours, I would be much happier.
Also, my measurements at the arch are 24 7/8, lowest part of the headers 3 1/4".
How old/new are your headers? I noticed in the 1st pic, you have a brace of some sort that bolts the collector to the pipes. Mine doesnt have that FYI. If I could get the collector up onto the pipe as much as yours, I would be much happier.
Also, my measurements at the arch are 24 7/8, lowest part of the headers 3 1/4".
Steve - they are brand new as of August 2010. I also noticed all the other SS header pics did not have these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tradin1
the headers are low, its just the way it is. ive had 3 different sets, same story all 3 times.
M555, we have dimension-checked all of the latest production LHD M5 headers, as well as the RHD M5 headers, and found that they are up to their correct, original specifications.
We even have measured them against one of our original M5 headers, which belongs to one of the very first production batches, still new and unused, and needless to say, the differences are none.
The next check, is doing a fitting test on a car.
But this will take some time, as we currently do not have a E39 M5 on hand.
It may take a while, before we find one, in our area.
But we will certainly do it, and report the results immediately.
Alessandro Gilli
Supersprint
Italy
First off, thank you for following up and checking all the dimensions. However, I feel like in the end, after checking dimensions in the factory, what still remains is that there are a handful of us who have this issue. Verifying numbers at the factory against the OEM part is good, but it doesn't remedy the issue that we're seeing. I feel that after isolating the SS headers independently, this is where the issue is, whether in the collector and/or primaries. Will SS do anything for us happy SS owner's to help us with improving ground clearance once all those dimensions are checked?
those headers should have .25 of gap at the top. trust me i stayed at a holiday inn last night. but no seriously, thats what they should have because i owned those things at one point.
you didnt really "gain" anything, the mounts on the e39 dont "compress" they just "give" out if that makes any sense. the 1/8th wont be noticable in a month after the mounts have settled in.
all of the supersprint headers have the issue, its just not as noticable for guys with stock suspension ride. most of the folks complaining itt are ones with aftermarket suspension. the SS headers with stock ride barely get away with routine driving.
i can guarantee you all of the headers you guys make are nearly identical and all of them are the same. i know of the 2 design variations, MAYBE a third, cant remember off the top of my head. but the 3 sets i owned all had lousy clearance. the issue could be relatively easily resolved with making the pipes quarter inch short at the collector, and then shortening the physical pipes in the middle a quarter inch as well. you might run into clearence issues with the body doing that though. for a friends m5 we hacked up his SS headers to make them fit. we ended doing that along with cutting the pipe at the bend right before the collector, shortening the pipe on the left of the bend an inch iirc and we were able to gain nearly and inch in clearence. that brought the clearence to roughly 4" and the lowest part of the car was still the exhaust setup, but only by a quarter inch.
it was a lot of work but we had a lift, welder, and angle grinder.
take that for what its worth.
you need a lot of braces to fix your issues!
This is precisely the issue. Low car = low everything.
First off, thank you for following up and checking all the dimensions. However, I feel like in the end, after checking dimensions in the factory, what still remains is that there are a handful of us who have this issue. Verifying numbers at the factory against the OEM part is good, but it doesn't remedy the issue that we're seeing. I feel that after isolating the SS headers independently, this is where the issue is, whether in the collector and/or primaries. Will SS do anything for us happy SS owner's to help us with improving ground clearance once all those dimensions are checked?
M555, we will certainly stand behind our products, as we always have done.
Should we find a problem in whatever area, we will rectify it immediately, and do what it takes, in order to make our customers even happier.
It this involves redisigning and replacing one, or more components, we will certainly do.
The thing is, that we have found no inconsistencies on the current headers; this means that there are no differences from their original design, which dates back to 2000.
We need to actually make a new, fitment test on a car, to find out what can be wrong.
As soon as we will have this done, we will chime in.
Alessandro Gilli
Supersprint
Italy
I've been following this thread closely. I have a RHD version of the SS headers with the SS connectors(oe) to the stock cats, and I too have one side sitting lower than the other (mines the drivers side).
I kinda sensed that my install wasn't 100% as I have a harsh 'kkrrrr" sound on hard-deceleration. I got the indy to drop the whole exhaust 3 times and we still couldn't get the collector to sit higher nor get rid of the sound. Might have to give this another try...
I've been close to pulling the trigger a few times on replacing the stock cats thinking that the indy botched the cut/weld too close to the cats body hence, damaging the inner dual-wall and that this was the source of sound, as there was no evidence of any leaks.
My indy has also tabled a "cutting it until she fits" approach similar to tradin1's, but will wait and see how this thread pans out.
A.Gilli - is there an official SS installed picture of the SS collector and SS connector(oe) connected to the stock cats that you can send me? Thanks.
Today I got the engine mounts replaced with no noticeable changes to the collector drop or the sound. I also don't have the bracket on one of the pipes to the collector, as M55555 has. Is this a new design? If so, what is it designed to address? (Known leakage issues, spring failure, other?)
Earlier on in this thread there were pics of different collector designs. It would be interesting to see a collation of the collectors of those that have this ground-clearance issue.
Good to know that I'm not the only one up late at night reading this thread and thinking about possible causes/solutions...
I've been following this thread closely. I have a RHD version of the SS headers with the SS connectors(oe) to the stock cats, and I too have one side sitting lower than the other (mines the drivers side).
I kinda sensed that my install wasn't 100% as I have a harsh 'kkrrrr" sound on hard-deceleration. I got the indy to drop the whole exhaust 3 times and we still couldn't get the collector to sit higher nor get rid of the sound. Might have to give this another try...
I've been close to pulling the trigger a few times on replacing the stock cats thinking that the indy botched the cut/weld too close to the cats body hence, damaging the inner dual-wall and that this was the source of sound, as there was no evidence of any leaks.
My indy has also tabled a "cutting it until she fits" approach similar to tradin1's, but will wait and see how this thread pans out.
A.Gilli - is there an official SS installed picture of the SS collector and SS connector(oe) connected to the stock cats that you can send me? Thanks.
Today I got the engine mounts replaced with no noticeable changes to the collector drop or the sound. I also don't have the bracket on one of the pipes to the collector, as M55555 has. Is this a new design? If so, what is it designed to address? (Known leakage issues, spring failure, other?)
Earlier on in this thread there were pics of different collector designs. It would be interesting to see a collation of the collectors of those that have this ground-clearance issue.
Good to know that I'm not the only one up late at night reading this thread and thinking about possible causes/solutions...
Cheers guys
Erick
Erick,
The Supersprint RHD headers resembles the LHD version, in terms of its final, installed dimensions, as the engine/chassis/drivetrain is exactly the same, on both car models.
The difference is in the design and in the layout of the primaries, which are mandated by the different placement of the steering column, and of some other engine ancillaries, such as the starter motor.
The collectors are the same, for both the Supersprint RHD and LHD headers, ans also the pressure plates, sealing rings, springs. etc. are the same.
We have redesigned the collector, but mostly its manufacturing process, about 2007, mantaining the same, final dimensions and the fitment carachteristics, including the chassis and the ground clearance.
This redesign is totally irrelevant on the performance gains of the headers. We even dare to say that it is mostly a cosmetic feature.
Later on, a safety tab had been added, in order to avoid any possible, liability issue, following the requirements of the latest, European technical regulations of the automotive industry standards.
Again this feature is totally irrelevant on the function, durability, and the fitment process of the headers.
This tab is what you actually see in the photos of the headers on M555' car.
The fitting process always is the same.
After installing the 8 primaries on the engine heads, the pressure plates and the sealing rings mus be slid on, and the collectors must be pushed all the way in; this means that the enlarged pipe section must bottom against the primaries' ends. Then the 8 springs have to be hooked on their provisions, 4 each side. Finally, the safety tab has to be bolted on and fastened (where present).
That's all. No room for adjustment here.
This is a very straight forward, albeit lenghty installation process; any shop can do it.
The only hint is that you may want to keep the nuts slighlty loose on the primaries flanges, at first, to aid the installation of the collectors, and tighten them them down as the last step, but that'n not really necessary.
This also allows for a very, very small adjustment range in the height of the headers.
After the headers, the Supersprint race cats are a straight, bolt-on application.
On the contrary, re-using the stock cats, and welding them to the Supersprint, R&L downpipe kit, takes some more skill, as the installer must be very precise with the alignment of the components, before welding them together.
The small, metallic pipe rings, which we supply with the downpipe kit, must close the gap on the double wall, stock cats' housing, after the main pipes have been welded completely.
The cats must be placed in the exact same position as they are with the stock headers, otherwise they will sit too low to the ground, or rub against the chassis under the engine torque-induced rotation, if they sit too close to the body panel (the rotation works both ways, under acceleration and under deceleration).
This is what may have happened to your exhaust, when you say that you hear a rattling sound under deceleration.
As of the ground clearance issue, the right-side header should have the same distance from the road, as the left side header does.
Ask your shop to loosen the 8 nuts on the right-side headers primaries, and see if there was any unwanted tension, which pushed the whole headers downwards. But again, this could account for a very small amount.
Anyway, we will check the fitment of the headers in the near future, as soon as we find a LHD M5 in our locale.
The results will transfer to the RHD version, as well, since the dimensioning specs are exactly the same, for both cars.
The small, metallic pipe rings, which we supply with the downpipe kit, must close the gap on the double wall, stock cats' housing, after the main pipes have been welded completely.
Thanks Alessandro.
IICRC, my indy tightened all the primaries first before tackling the collector. May need to "direct" him the next time I get him to drop the whole thing again.
I've had a quick look at the joint of the connector pipe and the stock cats, and I see no 'metallic pipe rings', just the weld to join them.
What do you mean "close the gap on the double wall"? How is this done "after the main pipes have been welded"? Do the pipe rings get inserted between the outer and inner wall?
Does anyone have a pic of how this is suppose to look? Am searching the forum now...
Thanks Alessandro.
IICRC, my indy tightened all the primaries first before tackling the collector. May need to "direct" him the next time I get him to drop the whole thing again.
I've had a quick look at the joint of the connector pipe and the stock cats, and I see no 'metallic pipe rings', just the weld to join them.
What do you mean "close the gap on the double wall"? How is this done "after the main pipes have been welded"? Do the pipe rings get inserted between the outer and inner wall?
Does anyone have a pic of how this is suppose to look? Am searching the forum now...
Cheers
Erick
Hi Erick.
Those two small rings are short, swaged end, pipe sections, approx 25 mm long.
They must overlap the exposed area, where the stock cat housing meets the Supersprint 786811 connecting pipes.
Those rings are designed to brace the pipes, making the whole assembly stronger, and to seal the air gap which is left open on the double wall cats' housing, after they have been separated from their original, twin downpipes.
Once the rings are installed and welded onto the cat assembly, they will remain in place , permanently.
Sorry about the lousy description of the rings, but their function is easier to understand, by actually seeing them in person.
If you do not see any air gap in the welded area, your shop must have done this process correctly.
We will post the photos, once we will have the install done.
Alessandro Gilli
Supersprint
Italy.
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