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Old 5th March 2002, 22:16   #1
Y2KM5
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Toyota recall similar to our clutch problems. . .

Hi folks,

I was just passed this article from WSJ. It is amazing how it resembles some of our clutch experiences!!!
Maybe BMW NA will learn something from it (well, with the new design direction they might have to start paying more attention to the service than ever before!).

pierre



-------------------------------------------------------

Toyota Gets Customer-Care Lesson
From Perils of Oil Sludge in Engines

Car companies are huge, impersonal and powerful organizations that often give unhappy customers a hard way to go. Want to buy a car? We love you. Got an expensive problem that's not covered by our warranty? Sorry, can't help you.

But there are signs that the industry is waking up to the reality that creating legions of unhappy customers is bad business -- and perhaps more costly than the risk that a few undeserving gripers might get a break. Consider the case of Toyota and Oil Sludge.

Toyota, which has a deserved and documented reputation for top-notch quality and reliability, sent ripples throughout the industry last month by announcing that it would change its usual warranty policies to cover repairs to motors installed in several 1997-2001 model lines if those engines turned up damaged by oil sludge. The offer, which runs for a year, covers engines installed in 1997-2001 Toyota Camrys, Solaras, Sienna minivans, Avalon sedans, Highlander sport utilities, and Lexus ES300s and RX300s. These are some of Toyota's best-selling models. Toyota said about 3 million vehicles are covered by the offer.

The action isn't a recall, Toyota said: Only people whose engines actually are damaged by oil sludging -- or "gelling," as the company terms it -- will get the benefit of this deal. Still, the announcement marks a victory for consumers and a defeat for the industry's conventional behavior toward customers with complaints.

A Nasty Problem

Oil sludge is a nasty problem that can lead to four- and five-figure repair bills. Oil can turn to sludge if it gets contaminated by water, dirt or engine coolant and the owner of the vehicle doesn't change the oil often enough. You are particularly at risk if you put your vehicle through certain kinds of severe driving patterns. You might think that means arduous journeys on dusty roads or in extreme heat. But it also means numerous short journeys driven in cold, damp weather. Of course, that describes the driving habits of millions of suburbanites in northern states who hop from store to school to soccer practice to home.

Toyota says it knows of some 3,000 complaints about oil sludging in its engines, but denies its products are in any way defective. Until last month, Toyota's official response to many of the customers who turned up at dealerships with gunk-slimed engines was to contend that the customers were at fault.

Toyota says its owner's manuals state that customers should change the oil every 7,500 miles or six months, whichever comes first, "under normal driving conditions." Under "severe operating conditions," that interval should be every 5,000 miles, the company says. Toyota spokesman John Hanson says the company isn't aware of any case of oil sludging that befell one of its vehicles when the owners followed the proper oil-change and maintenance schedules.

Sticking to the letter of the warranty may make sense financially and legally. But Toyota discovered it's not necessarily the best customer relations -- particularly in the era of the Internet.

Chatter on the Net

Try this: Type the words Toyota engine sludge into Google's search engine. You'll get pages upon pages of hits, many of them horror stories from people whose Toyota Sienna minivans were immobilized by engine sludge. Edmunds.com's Town Hall, meanwhile, has an entire discussion group devoted to "Engine Sludge" that's filled with posts about gunked-up Toyota engines. (townhall-talk2.edmunds.com/ WebX?50@188.wIndauPoY6B^1@.eea225d).

Rami Amaro, a lawyer in Cour D'Alene, Idaho, says she began monitoring the Internet chatter about Toyota oil-sludging problems several years ago after her 1998 Sienna minivan began blowing bluish smoke and ultimately was diagnosed with severe engine damage. Ms. Amaro says she had receipts for five oil changes, but when the time came to return the vehicle to the lease company, the company determined it was damaged and that she had to pay. Ms. Amaro says she is now working the Internet to contact people with similar problems. As might be expected given her profession, she's weighing whether there's grounds for litigation.

David Champion, director of automobile testing at Consumer Reports, says his organization's data don't show oil sludging to be a widespread issue for Toyota . "Toyota engines are pretty reliable," Mr. Champion says.

But Mr. Champion adds that Toyota nonetheless had a real problem. "People are used to Toyota's bullet-proof reliability and all of a sudden they come up with this," he says. And then, he says, they encounter dealers who contend the problem is their fault – a response that reinforces the perception that Toyota dealers are arrogant. "In our customer ratings, their dealers are always near the bottom," Mr. Champion says.

The Dealer's View

Buzz Rodland, a Toyota dealer in Everett, Wash., and former head of Toyota's National Dealer council, offers a different view. He says the dealer council began raising concerns about oil sludging with Toyota managers three years ago.

"I had maybe five in three years," he says. That's not a lot, but it got Mr. Rodland's attention -- in part because he wound up buying some sludge-damaged vehicles at an auction and in part because of the position he was in with customers who had the problem. The rules were that if the customer couldn't prove that they had changed the oil as Toyota's warranty stipulated, Toyota wasn't obligated to repair the engine. Mr. Rodland says that in no case he encountered did a customer have the proof of proper maintenance. But delivering the news that the factory won't cover a huge repair bill "puts the dealer face to face with a very angry customer," he says. Mr. Rodland praises Toyota's new policy.

There are lessons to be learned here. One is that any car maker -- no matter how sterling its reputation for quality -- must think hard about responding to complaints with policies that effectively blame the customer for things gone wrong. It could be that the customer is off-base. But customers aren't as powerless as in the past to fight back.

That puts a different spin on the cost calculus for a manufacturer confronted by a problem like Toyota's. Let's say for argument's sake that all 3,000 Toyota customers who reported engine-sludge problems are truly at fault for totally neglecting proper maintenance. It would still be cheaper for Toyota to replace all these engines for free than to risk significant, ongoing damage to its reputation. That reputation is worth hundreds of dollars per vehicle in extra profit, because many consumers will pay more to get a Toyota than a comparable vehicle from a weaker brand.

"You don't want to be blaming your customer," says Mr. Rodland.

Motorists, for their part, need to be more attentive. Who knew that a soccer mom or dad's typical driving patterns qualified as severe duty for a modern engine? But they do. An increasing number of auto makers are equipping their vehicles with oil-life sensors (GM plans to make them standard on all North American models by the 2003 model year.) Those of us who don't have these gadgets are now warned: Change the oil every 5,000 to 7,500 miles (or whatever the owner's manual says) and save the receipts.

Then there's some advice about the quick oil-change shops that many motorists (myself included) rely on for regular maintenance. The quality of service in these places is uneven, says Mr. Champion of Consumer Reports.

"A good one is a good one and a bad one is a bad one," he says. "There are some horror stories out there."

He suggests checking with the Better Business Bureau about the outlets near you, or stopping in at a good auto-parts store that caters to professional mechanics and asking the staff which shops they respect. "They'll know who buys the good quality" parts, he says.

Finally, some people have turned to expensive synthetic oils to try to avoid sludging. Mr. Champion's view: "We haven't seen in testing that it makes any difference."

Send your comments about Eyes on the Road to joseph.white@wsj.com.

Toyota says it knows of some 3,000 complaints about oil sludging in its engines, but denies its products are in any way defective.
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Old 5th March 2002, 23:33   #2
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What is determined to be the reason for the sludging?

Does the crankcase not breath enough?

And why do they think synthetics would sludge as much as conventional oils. This just isn't so.

You can go a year in a BMW before they will change the oil even if engine monitors do not indicate it is time. Why does Toyota have a minimum of every six months.

Sounds like a design defect.
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Old 6th March 2002, 00:19   #3
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Hi Bart,

to tell you honestly, I do not really care if there is a problem with their design or not.

The issue here was that some ppl are claiming doing nothing wrong and Toyota is turning down their warranty claims. Having been in their shoes while claiming the clutch problem , I could relate to it. Although, I was the lucky one, and my dealership eventually took care of my problem (and then some!), some other members of the board got shafted!

I wanted to bring it up to show that consumers do have some power and that Toyota listened and maybe BMW will listen now, too. . . I wish. . .

pierre
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Old 6th March 2002, 02:11   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bart Carter

Sounds like a design defect.
You have great hearing, IMHO
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Old 6th March 2002, 02:32   #5
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Way to go Toyota! Hopefully they set the standard and BMW wakes up!
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Old 6th March 2002, 06:37   #6
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Lets look at it a different way. Toyota claims 3 million engines are in this "group". 3,000 complaints have been filed. I know it's late & I'm terrible at math but isn't that 1/10th of one percent claiming trouble?

I'd say if I were Toyota and I had a problem with 1/10th of one percent of all total vehicles, I'd claim "no defect in workmanship" too.

Just trying to put it into perspective.

Now, wheres Jim Dolan's "clutch problem poll" to compare the ratio of problems vs. M5's sold...
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