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BlueM5 blew a motor

11K views 97 replies 36 participants last post by  jfman 
#1 ·
It pains me that I have to start this thread, but I have a story to tell and it's not a fun one. I'd like to start by apologizing to the car. You were awesome and did your job and it's my fault. Somewhere in here, I'm looking for opinions and advice and I have my own ideas and thoughts.

I like to drive fast and I wanted to know how fast the car would go. I put a Shark Injector on the car and it did it's job. I just got back from my vacation and the car was awesome in the mountains and ran like a champ. Ever since I bought the car, I noticed it would use some oil if I ran it at 100 or more for a while or really got in the gas hard in town on a somewhat consistent basis. It was somewhat of a tradeoff for me to show off and have fun and occasionally throw in a quart. It used some oil in the mountains, but not a great amount.

My story starts in Salt Lake City. I checked the oil when getting gas and was about 1/2 a quart low, but didn't add. I went to Bonneville the next morning and the conditions were great with no wind and nobody else running. My tires held up great. I got the car up to 173 on my first run and didn't really shift at optimum times. It was somewhat of a hard pull above 150 out on the salt and hindsight tells me I could've built up speed a lot faster on pavement. I took it mostly easy on my way back to the starting point, but neither checked the oil nor cleaned out any salt. My mechanic doesn't think not checking the oil was a big deal since I probably only did around 2-25 hard miles out there total.

My problem as best I can tell was on the run back to the start where I was determined to shift at max RPM's for each gear. I had my girls with me and I just flat out forgot to shift from 4th to 5th on that run. There was one other time around town here that I forgot to shift from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd on time and might gotten around 7600-7800 RPM's before shifting, but there was no problem with the engine. Anyway, I was doing around 130 and got it up to around 8000 RPM's and felt the car lose power, but it didn't click. It was like what a "limp home" mode would feel like in my estimation except I had never felt that in the Sharked car. I hit the gas again and it cut out on me a 2nd time and this time I remembered that I was redlining it. I slowed all the way down to either 1st or 2nd and started working the gears again and it seemed fine. I started another run and got back up to 140 in 6th and the engine just died on me. It gave me that nasty engine light and my first thought was, "I blew a motor".

The car coasted for a ways before I got smart and turned it back towards the starting point to be closer for a tow. At some point I turned off the ignition and let it coast until it stopped. At that point I tried to start it and couldn't (I got the nasty engine light and add coolant). The tow truck wouldn't come on the salt flats, so they pulled me back to their truck with a four wheeler. "It Must've Been Love" by Roxette has always been one of my favorite songs, but I've never known why a hopeless romantic like me would love that song so much. Needless to say, I had Roxette music playing while I was out there and listened as I was getting towed back. "It Must've Been Love" came on while I was getting towed and you better believe the line "It must've been love, but it's all over now" from that song hit like a sledgehammer and it was the first time in my life that I truly felt a connection for that song I love so much actually applying to my own life. I didn't even feel that way about the song when I was getting divorced, but I do about the car.

Anyway, they towed me in to the BMW place in Murray, Utah. I've got to give the people there props as they seem like decent people. They gave the girls and me a ride to the mall so we could eat and they called with the bad news. The engine was blown and a piston connecting rod put a hole in the block. They don't know what other damage might be on the car, but they said maybe metal in the exhaust and it's possible I might need a new clutch. The main thing is an engine replacement and they said $28K. I've seen used engine/transmissions on here for $7-8K. I'm going to get the car trucked back to Texas and my mechanic here thinks my best bet would be to buy another M5 and use my current one for parts since he doesn't think I could get mine fixed for less than $10-20K. I might be looking at letting it sit for a while, but I want a running M5 at some point.

What do you guys think about this stuff:

1. Auctions and salvaged vehicles are a potential option. I know they can be crapshoots, but I had a car that was running perfect and my big problem now is just an engine that doesn't work and I might not need much off of another car to get mine running.

2. My car is an 02. How well do the parts from 02 cross over (To mine or from mine) if I bought an E39 from another year?

3. How well do the engines hold up for cars that are in crashes? I know a rear collision wouldn't be much of an issue, but how about side and front collisions? Common sense tells me cars get salvaged because the damage is more than a car is worth and that could be a red flag for engine problems, but I've also read about plenty of salvage vehicles that are totaled even though the damage is far less than the car value.

4. Flood damage vehicles seem to get decent marks for buying as salvage, but what do you think about the mechanical performance of those vehicles?

5. When I broke it, my original desire was to fix my car, but I'm open to using it as parts when I see a deal good enough to buy another car. Do you think my better option is to buy a good working car and just cannibalize from mine when needed? I can't get over thinking that my car could have hidden problems that show up later, but then again, maybe my worst is just replacing an engine.

6. Thanks for any replies! I just wanted to bounce it off of you guys to see what you've experienced or heard.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
i think you should bring it back to tx, and call me.

we can get this squared away pretty easily and for roughly 4500-6000 EASILY and ALL DAY LONG and will only take us a weekend.

if you dont know me, well then hi im raza i have a spare motor and this thread should explain the rest.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e3...7676-my-s62-swap-comes-conclusion-ending.html

i think you are 30 minutes away from me?

/thread
 
#4 ·
i think you should bring it back to tx, and call me.

we can get this squared away pretty easily and for roughly 4500-6000 EASILY and ALL DAY LONG and will only take us a weekend.

if you dont know me, well then hi im raza i have a spare motor and this thread should explain the rest.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e3...7676-my-s62-swap-comes-conclusion-ending.html

i think you are 30 minutes away from me?

/thread
This is the by FAR the best option IMO. I wouldn't even think twice, except maybe an ESS kit while you are at it :)
 
#6 ·
Lonny, call Raza he will get you running again. Raza if this happens would you mine if I fly down and watch the swap....always looking to learn more about the beast and and I could take a weekend. I have tons of travel miles.

James
 
#8 ·
Sorry to hear about that. I know the sickening feeling of a blown motor - happened to my M3 and $20k later I had a new upgraded drivetrain. But very sad feeling when it happened. Sounds like an incredible offer - and not too far away.

BTW I would never buy a "Flood" drivetrain - a hydrolocked engine has seals blown everywhere. My son found out about that when he tried to plow through a flash flood road crossing in Texas.
 
#9 ·
There was one other time around town here that I forgot to shift from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd on time and might gotten around 7600-7800 RPM's before shifting, but there was no problem with the engine. Anyway, I was doing around 130 and got it up to around 8000 RPM's and felt the car lose power, but it didn't click.
I'm not trying to add insult to injury or anything. but did you seriously think that revving 600-1000rpm over the stock rev limit was gonna be anything but BAD for the piston rods/bearings, which are known to fail under 'normal' use? I must admit, the car running on low oil definitely contributed to your blown motor.

how you got to 8000rpm is beyond me because even the sharked software has a raised limit of only 7400rpm. the only way i can see this happening is if you deliberately downshifted from 4th to 3rd at high speed or something of that nature....

Honestly though, I'm sorry to hear about your beast,

perhaps this good used s62 engine w/ 41k miles for $2.5k would be of good use to you?

2002 Bmw M5 S62 Engine only 41k mils!
 
#11 ·
I'm not trying to add insult to injury or anything. but did you seriously think that revving 600-1000rpm over the stock rev limit was gonna be anything but BAD for the piston rods/bearings, which are known to fail under 'normal' use? I must admit, the car running on low oil definitely contributed to your blown motor.

how you got to 8000rpm is beyond me because even the sharked software has a raised limit of only 7400rpm. the only way i can see this happening is if you deliberately downshifted from 4th to 3rd at high speed or something of that nature....

Honestly though, I'm sorry to hear about your beast,

perhaps this good used s62 engine w/ 41k miles for $2.5k would be of good use to you?

2002 Bmw M5 S62 Engine only 41k mils!
1. Thanks to the alert on the engine.
2. Sure, I think it's bad to do it, but it wasn't on purpose. It was a bonehead move.
3. No, I didn't downshift. It got that high just by accelerating in 4th.
 
#10 ·
Maybe this is another reason for M owners not to go for the extended rev limiter! Both the ECU flashes ive had done, ive request stock rev limiter. I usually shift at around 6500RPM in this car anyway, i think 7000rpm was pushing it from the factory.

That really sucks though, i blew a motor in my old car once, oil pump let loose at 7600rpm while i was running a turbo eclipse! Hopefully Raza can fix her up, and you will be back on your way. I do have a question, what was the mileage on the motor? And how long have you had the Shark Injector for. and roughly how many times in a week would you approach the 7400rpm rev limiter? This may help us with some insight on the whole extending the rev limiter deal!
 
#12 ·
Maybe this is another reason for M owners not to go for the extended rev limiter! Both the ECU flashes ive had done, ive request stock rev limiter. I usually shift at around 6500RPM in this car anyway, i think 7000rpm was pushing it from the factory.

That really sucks though, i blew a motor in my old car once, oil pump let loose at 7600rpm while i was running a turbo eclipse! Hopefully Raza can fix her up, and you will be back on your way. I do have a question, what was the mileage on the motor? And how long have you had the Shark Injector for. and roughly how many times in a week would you approach the 7400rpm rev limiter? This may help us with some insight on the whole extending the rev limiter deal!
1. The engine had 116-117K on it.
2. The Shark had been on for about a month.
3. I rarely would shift at higher than 6500 before I went to Bonneville. For most driving, I'd shift at 5500-6500 if I wanted to be a little aggressive.
 
#13 ·
Sorry bout that OP. Without that failure I bet that woulda been a fine day.

Every time I read a thread like this I feel like having all of my bottom end bearings swapped out. I have 88k and no idea of the condition of my bearings. Can't someone write a DIY??? C'mon guys...bust out that digicam!
 
#14 ·
Every time I read a thread like this I think of all the poor S62s out there with aftermarket ECU raised rev limits. Seriously, does anyone really think it's worth the proven risk to simply rev the engine 400 or so rpm higher? Some of these "tuners" gain their vaunted advertising "horsepower" numbers by simply spinning the engine higher and tuning timing/fuel to get a few hp up there...so what. Now you have an M5 that is just barely if any faster than a pure stock one, yet the risk to the rod bearings has tripled or more. Why abuse expensive hardware for so little gain with these aftermarket tunings that raise the already high factory rev limit? (just feeling sorry for so many S62s out there with stupidly raised rev limiters :( ).
 
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#16 ·
A few points to ponder:
1. The power peak is at 6600 rpm, so you need to shift close to redline to extract maximum power.

2. Dinan has a raised limit of 7300 and no one is reporting failures. As a matter of fact, the S3's seem to be bulletproof regarding motors (clutches not so good). So a small bump in the rev limit, all other things being equal, is probably not fatal.

3. OP rev'ed to 8000 rpm--that is more than the motor can withstand and if there was a weak link, 8k rpm exposed it (low oil probably didn't help either as oil starvation at high rpm means less protection of the motor).

The question is how did the motor get to 8000? The OP says he did not miss a downshift, so something electronically failed. The SI should have close to a stock rev limit, Jim C. knows his stuff and the power on the stock motor falls off drastically round 7400 rpm, so raising the rev limit past that is pointless. So, what failed to allow a run to 8000 rpm? I would certainly want the SI box checked before I consider putting it back in.

And props to Raz, if there is anyone who can get the OP up and running, Raz is da man!

Regards,
Jerry
 
#17 ·
155

Guys,

I sharked the car for one reason and one reason only. I hated to have a car that would run faster than 155 be limited to 155. The extra HP was nice and I was fine with a higher redline, but I hated being limited to 155.

You guys are right that higher redlines are playing with fire, but I also have to say Bonneville is about the only place I could blow a motor because it's a decent-size run area (10-17 miles), but it's limited by mountains and bad driving conditions on the fringes, and you can run flat-out without trouble. I don't run 170 on the street because I don't want to go to jail. Bonneville is the only place I'd ever shift that high for each gear, but that's because I only have a few minutes of driving before I can shut it down and turn around.

Yeah, my lesson learned is to not push the car so hard once I fix it!
 
#83 ·
The stock M5 will do 168 mph at least on 5th and that is 7000 rpms.

When I disabled my limited I only took away the limited and let the 7000 rpm limit stay.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e9...rtge-h50-v10-test-drive-including-videos.html

Maybe 7300 is OK buut I wouldnt do it.

Guys,

I sharked the car for one reason and one reason only. I hated to have a car that would run faster than 155 be limited to 155. The extra HP was nice and I was fine with a higher redline, but I hated being limited to 155.

You guys are right that higher redlines are playing with fire, but I also have to say Bonneville is about the only place I could blow a motor because it's a decent-size run area (10-17 miles), but it's limited by mountains and bad driving conditions on the fringes, and you can run flat-out without trouble. I don't run 170 on the street because I don't want to go to jail. Bonneville is the only place I'd ever shift that high for each gear, but that's because I only have a few minutes of driving before I can shut it down and turn around.

Yeah, my lesson learned is to not push the car so hard once I fix it!
 
#18 ·
Swap then motor and live to smile again. Raza can obviously help you with that.

And Raza, for most people, Wichita Falls is a bit farther than 30 mins from you. But then I've seen you drive... ;-)
 
#22 · (Edited)
I would get it professionally diagnosed before heading off to Houston.

If you upshift much past the torque peak rpm, you are hampering your acceleration. It might sound cool to over rev the engine, but neither the clock nor the speed traps measure cool.

Steve
00 M5
 
#30 · (Edited)
My problem as best I can tell was on the run back to the start where I was determined to shift at max RPM's for each gear. I had my girls with me and I just flat out forgot to shift from 4th to 5th on that run. There was one other time around town here that I forgot to shift from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd on time and might gotten around 7600-7800 RPM's before shifting, but there was no problem with the engine. Anyway, I was doing around 130 and got it up to around 8000 RPM's and felt the car lose power, but it didn't click. It was like what a "limp home" mode would feel like in my estimation except I had never felt that in the Sharked car. I hit the gas again and it cut out on me a 2nd time and this time I remembered that I was redlining it. I slowed all the way down to either 1st or 2nd and started working the gears again and it seemed fine. I started another run and got back up to 140 in 6th and the engine just died on me. It gave me that nasty engine light and my first thought was, "I blew a motor".
You had kids in your car going 175?:rolleyes: It sounds like you got lucky that all that happenend was a blown engine!
 
#32 ·
You had kids in your car going 175?:rolleyes: It sounds like you got lucky that all that happenend was a blown engine!
I know people won't like it, but I wanted them to experience it, too. You might say they don't know any better, but the older one likes going fast and it's better to be with me than some other knucklehead (I controlled a car with a blowout at 118 one time). This was the same girl that wanted to go faster than 140 on a country road one night. In any case, they know driving fast can break a car. I wish I could've ridden in a car that fast when I was their ages.

I would also like to add that their health is no more important than mine. That might sound cocky to a few, but I've always disagreed with the mantra that the young should live and the old should die.
 
#31 · (Edited)
You need to visit raza for engine fix and remove the stupid chip which led to your misfortune. Stick with stock rev limiter unless you have under 50K mi on your rod bearings. Careful searches will show that most S62 engines that blow have chips which is both alarming and insightful, as relatively few M5 cars have chips. The failure mode is classic & confirmed many times thru teardown inspection.
 
#33 ·
I have a few questions. Is the blow rate more due to:

1. People pushing it too much?
2. Not keeping the speed down?
3. General wear and tear at higher speeds, but below the rev limiter?

The reason why I ask is because I'm interested in still having a chip, but not pushing it at the same kind of RPM's in the future and for all intents and purposes not the same kind of speed. I don't foresee doing a bunch of mods to take it to the track and tear something else up, nor do I envision getting into these car rallies where you go all-out, but have to install a bunch of safety equipment.
 
#38 ·
OP- Lonny- Are you using any old "5W30 Synthetic"? Your comment about oils makes me think you mignt not be using the recommended viscosity (ie BMW High Performance 5W30)

If so, add "inadequate oil viscosity over many years" as a possible cause.

There are a good many ways to eliminate the 155 limit without raising the redline..,. as your are discovering.
 
#58 ·
OP- Lonny- Are you using any old "5W30 Synthetic"? Your comment about oils makes me think you mignt not be using the recommended viscosity (ie BMW High Performance 5W30)

If so, add "inadequate oil viscosity over many years" as a possible cause.

There are a good many ways to eliminate the 155 limit without raising the redline..,. as your are discovering.
I thought I answered this good enough before. I live in Wichita Falls and this place isn't exactly the biggest metro area out there (About 120-130K and Lawton has around 110K close to 50 miles up the road), nor is it the mecca of BMW territory (We do have a dealer, though)! The only reason why this place has much of a European car influence at all is because we do pilot training here and pilots love fast cars. We also do the European pilot training here, so there is some market.

Saying that, I probably have the only M5 in a 100 mile radius and that's no joke. If you look at a map, you're going to have to go to metro Dallas/Ft. Worth or Oklahoma City to find the closest one. I don't think anybody in Lawton has one and Abilene might not. I think there could be a few in Lubbock, but that's 200 miles away.

Anyway, here is the crux of my story. When it comes time to get parts, tires, etc. they're almost never in stock. Almost everything I've put on the car I either bought on ebay, online, or had somebody in town have it shipped in. I haven't been to the BMW place for an oil change so I don't know if they have 10W-60 or not. My German mechanic might have it, but he suggested 10W-30 or 10W-40. I didn't have a choice but 5W-30 on my last change. I'd probably have to order high performance synthetic in this town.
 
#40 ·
Why have you just opened that can, labelled "WORMS" ? :confused3 :eek:oohhh: :eek:
 
#49 · (Edited)
Since different oil will not fix a worn rod bearing, the thicker oil strategy offers little extra margin or safeguard to nth owners of worn and weathered M5 cars. A higher viscosity oil is a bandaid at best for a ticking timebomb like worn bearings that offer adequate oil control under 6K RPM but fail when stressed at M5 redline. Several M5's have blown after their first HPDE event running 10W-60. These garage queens obviously had latent issues that surfaced when their "sick" engines were first exercised at full duty. The same applies to any overweight 30yo who tries to run a marathon with no preparation. You simply can not run at maximum RPM or duty with a big problem such as clogged arteries or worn bearings. When you're putzing around town eating at fast food restaurants or using your self-propelled push mower to cut a 1/3 acre, everything seems OK. Your doctor gives you a routine stress test and suddenly you need a triple bypass...wtf?? Don't blame the stress test for your condition!! That's a little naive. Cars and people are really quite similar. I think Lonny has not read and understood all the rod bearing threads yet after seeing all the questions about whether the S62 is durable and capable of high RPM etc. It all depends upon wear history (condition).

There is no evidence suggesting that thinner oils accelerate wear or promote bearing failure during street use. I ran 5W-30 in my cars for 300K mi and the engines are healthy with minimal wear. Thicker oils greatly accelerate cold start wear when oil temps are below 150 degrees F. However thicker oils can provide added protection when bearings are loose/worn, oiling system is weak and/or oil temps are abnormally high. Formula 1 engines & asian motorcycles run super thin oil at dizzing RPM. As clearances increase with wear, a thicker oil may offer a little better safety cushion wrt rod bearing lubricity. If I owned an M5 with 100K mi with original bearings, I would indeed use 10W-60, but this same oil would likely accelerate engine wear a bit in lower mile short trip daily driver cars. This is a big problem with S62 that does not surface on most other cars. I ran track with countless cars using 5W-30 and 10W-30 banging on rev limiters with oil temps at 300 degrees F without issues. There are a small number of modern cars that can not do that including certain Corvette and BMW models due to some disturbing oiling issues.
 
#60 ·
Since different oil will not fix a worn rod bearing, the thicker oil strategy offers little extra margin or safeguard to nth owners of worn and weathered M5 cars. A higher viscosity oil is a bandaid at best for a ticking timebomb like worn bearings that offer adequate oil control under 6K RPM but fail when stressed at M5 redline. Several M5's have blown after their first HPDE event running 10W-60. These garage queens obviously had latent issues that surfaced when their "sick" engines were first exercised at full duty. The same applies to any overweight 30yo who tries to run a marathon with no preparation. You simply can not run at maximum RPM or duty with a big problem such as clogged arteries or worn bearings. When you're putzing around town eating at fast food restaurants or using your self-propelled push mower to cut a 1/3 acre, everything seems OK. Your doctor gives you a routine stress test and suddenly you need a triple bypass...wtf?? Don't blame the stress test for your condition!! That's a little naive. Cars and people are really quite similar. I think Lonny has not read and understood all the rod bearing threads yet after seeing all the questions about whether the S62 is durable and capable of high RPM etc. It all depends upon wear history (condition).

There is no evidence suggesting that thinner oils accelerate wear or promote bearing failure during street use. I ran 5W-30 in my cars for 300K mi and the engines are healthy with minimal wear. Thicker oils greatly accelerate cold start wear when oil temps are below 150 degrees F. However thicker oils can provide added protection when bearings are loose/worn, oiling system is weak and/or oil temps are abnormally high. Formula 1 engines & asian motorcycles run super thin oil at dizzing RPM. As clearances increase with wear, a thicker oil may offer a little better safety cushion wrt rod bearing lubricity. If I owned an M5 with 100K mi with original bearings, I would indeed use 10W-60, but this same oil would likely accelerate engine wear a bit in lower mile short trip daily driver cars. This is a big problem with S62 that does not surface on most other cars. I ran track with countless cars using 5W-30 and 10W-30 banging on rev limiters with oil temps at 300 degrees F without issues. There are a small number of modern cars that can not do that including certain Corvette and BMW models due to some disturbing oiling issues.
No I haven't read all the threads, but the more I talk to people and read on here, it sounds like the failure is an "All of the above". It's a combo of hard driving, my stupidity, and the wear on the car. The car isn't new and although much effort has gone into maintaining it over the years, it's still been driven hard and has spent time at the track, not to mention Bonneville.

Raza is right that nobody buys these cars and drives like an old woman going to church on Sunday. If you just want looks, you could save mega dough and get another car. People buy M5's to show off. I love beating everybody off the line in the Shagging Wagon, which is almost always the case! I blow the doors off of people in the car. I bought this car because I wanted to accelerate going UP the mountains and I'm talking about the kind above 10K.

Now saying all that, I'd appreciate any advice you guys have to keep me from blowing another motor, but I don't want to drive like a church lady!
 
#51 ·
Not necessarily. Cold start and warm-up is by far the biggest contributor to wear. The last thing an S62 that's left outside in the winter needs is 10W60 in the sump...especially if the oil has been in there a few thousand miles and the viscosity modifiers have been sheared such that it won't come close to being a 10W at cold temps (i.e. more like 20w40 or so).
 
#53 ·
As many of you know, I spun two rod bearings right at 100,000 miles - never tracked, changed oil beyond recommended service indicators (about every 4K miles) etc.

Had all the rod as well as the main bearings replaced - all connecting rods and the crank.

The question that I cannot seem to get a definitive answer is, should we do proactive rod bearing replacement assuming that you are going to keep the car and if so, at what mileage intervals?

I currently have 197,000 miles on the car and again, after the bottom end was replaced at 100,000, I'm getting real nervous.
 
#55 ·
you should also take into account nobody comes on here saying "hey i have 100k miles and my rods bearings are fine." all the rod bearing threads you see are maybe .2% of m5 owners, i really dont think its that big a deal. comparing the amount of m5s built to amount of blown motors is not really fair since we are talking about cars on forums, and lets face it, we all drive the piss out of our cars on here. if you dont, then you are a liar.

just my take on the "rod bearing" issue.
 
#54 · (Edited)
M5 with a Bow Tie

500hp for 14k. 3 year 36000 mile warranty. Someone needs to do it!

Thinking about putin one in my Suburban.
 
#63 ·
I really don't want to add fuel to the oil debate, but for what it's worth, I run Mobil 1 0W-40 in mine. It's close to the BMW 5W-30 according to everything I've read here. There are abundant threads on it.

I get it at Autozone. I know they have to have an Autozone in WF. I've been through there many times, and while it's not the biggest town out there, I bet if you ask at the Autozone, they can get it for you. Or order it from Amazon. I kid you not.
 
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