Bosch told me they never have or will sell elements on their own, so I wonder where the element (tubeless) ones are coming from?? Remanufactured/refurbished?
I personally think Bosch fed you a scripted line of marketing B.S. here. Sounds like a way for them to keep everyone going thru the proper dealership supply chain, and away from eBay etc., so they can all make the most $. Soooooo much easier for them to just sell the sensors to manufacturers and dealerships instead of the massive coordinated effort it would take for them to receive housings from all the car manufacurers of the world...insert sensors w/ two screws...and then ship them all back out.
Just my theory of course, but in these modern financial times all businesses are trying to cut expenses. It's just so much cheaper to ship sensors out then to deal w/ all the housings out there. I bet they maybe USED to do it that way, but I doubt Beastpower, Bimmerzone etc. are trying to pull a fast one with remanufatured parts of this nature.
Hey for all we know BP/BZ do get them w/ housings and just separate them from the housings knowing we don't need them and to save on shipping/packaging costs. Has anyone ever inquired?
I personally think Bosch fed you a scripted line of marketing B.S. here. Sounds like a way for them to keep everyone going thru the proper dealership supply chain, and away from eBay etc., so they can all make the most $. Soooooo much easier for them to just sell the sensors to manufacturers and dealerships instead of the massive coordinated effort it would take for them to receive housings from all the car manufacurers of the world...insert sensors w/ two screws...and then ship them all back out.
Just my theory of course, but in these modern financial times all businesses are trying to cut expenses. It's just so much cheaper to ship sensors out then to deal w/ all the housings out there. I bet they maybe USED to do it that way, but I doubt Beastpower, Bimmerzone etc. are trying to pull a fast one with remanufatured parts of this nature.
Hey for all we know BP/BZ do get them w/ housings and just separate them from the housings knowing we don't need them and to save on shipping/packaging costs. Has anyone ever inquired?
Hey cheers for the repsonse. Its the only one I have had to this question.
I am not suggesting that BP/BZ are pulling a fast one, but I would like to find out either way.
The Bosch guy actually told me that they flow test each tube, due to mass production variances, and adjust each sensor accordingly....sounds like a lot of work to me and he is possibly protecting his company's position in the market, but he did seem to make thorough sense at the time, and I was quizzing him left, right and centre. He also mentioned the SECURITY screws on them, were on for a reason, he said they were so that people would not interchange sensors from their correct/tested "parent" tubing .....
In the UK through a Bosch Dealer we get a pair of 029's screwed into new tubing, in Bosch Boxes for £315 a pair.
I think the real test would be to see the L/Hr numbers after 3000 miles or so. If they have dipped down to about 120 L/Hr given all other systems are perfect then I would hazard a guess that something was a miss, with these elements. Just a hypothesis.
Trust me when I say I want these BP/BZ elements to be an identical swap to doing what I did (new elements screwed into new tubing) as I consider MAFS to be a 20K Miles maintenace part and I would when fully satisfied go the BP/BZ element swap route (but I would NEVER do it if I have doubts about it and my ones are only marginally more expensive).
So has anyone asked them BP/BZ where they get their ones from ?
Hey cheers for the repsonse. Its the only one I have had to this question.
I am not suggesting that BP/BZ are pulling a fast one, but I would like to find out either way.
The Bosch guy actually told me that they flow test each tube, due to mass production variances, and adjust each sensor accordingly....sounds like a lot of work to me and he is possibly protecting his company's position in the market, but he did seem to make thorough sense at the time, and I was quizzing him left, right and centre. He also mentioned the SECURITY screws on them, were on for a reason, he said they were so that people would not interchange sensors from their correct/tested "parent" tubing .....
In the UK through a Bosch Dealer we get a pair of 029's screwed into new tubing, in Bosch Boxes for £315 a pair.
I think the real test would be to see the L/Hr numbers after 3000 miles or so. If they have dipped down to about 120 L/Hr given all other systems are perfect then I would hazard a guess that something was a miss, with these elements. Just a hypothesis.
Trust me when I say I want these BP/BZ elements to be an identical swap to doing what I did (new elements screwed into new tubing) as I consider MAFS to be a 20K Miles maintenace part and I would when fully satisfied go the BP/BZ element swap route (but I would NEVER do it if I have doubts about it and my ones are only marginally more expensive).
So has anyone asked them BP/BZ where they get their ones from ?
Thanks
Kumaran
No one knows if the MAF element and housing are a matched pair, but i doubt it. In that case, what does Dinan do with his oversized MAF housings? If the elements have to be replaced in matched pairs with the housings, replacement of just the MAF sensor on Dinan larger MAF housing equiped cars will not yield optimal results. I tend to doubt this, although I recognize the possibility exists.
Regards,
Jerry
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No one knows if the MAF element and housing are a matched pair, but i doubt it. In that case, what does Dinan do with his oversized MAF housings? If the elements have to be replaced in matched pairs with the housings, replacement of just the MAF sensor on Dinan larger MAF housing equiped cars will not yield optimal results. I tend to doubt this, although I recognize the possibility exists.
Regards,
Jerry
In my opinion I cant see how the Dinan oversized MAF housing can work properly due to its cross sectional area being much larger to the stock housing. Surely the increased air flow/sensor cooling (therefore), would necessitate a larger voltage to heat the exposed (in the air flow) sensor wire, to maintain it at the same temp as the control wire (hidden from airflow). This increased voltage is what your DME is determining/referencing to as metered air flow. I think I got that right....
BUT obviously Dinan MUST take this into account in their software upgrades right ? I cant see the Dinan MAF housings being plug and play
Same thinking obviously goes for the VW MAF which you take out of its tiny VW tubing and put into your over sized (in relation to VW) M5 stock housing.....which will definitely lead to a confused DME right ? But this is all old news as VW MAFs are sooo 2005
No one knows if the MAF element and housing are a matched pair, but i doubt it. In that case, what does Dinan do with his oversized MAF housings? If the elements have to be replaced in matched pairs with the housings, replacement of just the MAF sensor on Dinan larger MAF housing equiped cars will not yield optimal results. I tend to doubt this, although I recognize the possibility exists.
Regards,
Jerry
The calibration isnt in the sensor...it's in the DME. The same exact sensor is used in the 540i, which uses a much bigger single tube than the M5's twins. This is how Dinan gets away with his oversized (for the M5, its actually smaller than the OEM 540 maf) and tapered tubes. It is a hot film sensor that ranges between 0 and 5 Volts to maintain a specific temperature while being cooled by intake air. It also has a thermisitor to give an IAT reading (hence the 5th pin in the connector). They do probably flow bench each tube (to make sure it's within spec) but the sensors are not matched. The main reason they dont want to sell the MAF w/o the Tube is to control who is buying them...unless you know someone, bosch is not going to sell you a MAF (with or w/o the tube)....they'll just point you to one of their dealers.
In my opinion I cant see how the Dinan oversized MAF housing can work properly due to its cross sectional area being much larger to the stock housing. Surely the increased air flow/sensor cooling (therefore), would necessitate a larger voltage to heat the exposed (in the air flow) sensor wire, to maintain it at the same temp as the control wire (hidden from airflow). This increased voltage is what your DME is determining/referencing to as metered air flow. I think I got that right....
BUT obviously Dinan MUST take this into account in their software upgrades right ? I cant see the Dinan MAF housings being plug and play
Same thinking obviously goes for the VW MAF which you take out of its tiny VW tubing and put into your over sized (in relation to VW) M5 stock housing.....which will definitely lead to a confused DME right ? But this is all old news as VW MAFs are sooo 2005
When you increase the tube size, without compensating changes to the MAF voltage maps the car will run lean. This is because the extra airflow capacity has not been accounted for. The MAF sensor is not calibrated for the tube it's in. The MFG works with Bosch to create a tube that matches their intake system (or buys one thats already made, and has a new p/n stamped into it). The tuning is done by the vehicle manufacturer. All that is specified from bosch is the tube size and sensor type/voltage. The tamper proof screws are simply there (forgive me for stating the obvious) to keep regular people from tampering with/damaging the Hot film meter. The tools to remove the screws properly are sold to those who service the cars.
It really isnt rocket science, Bosch wants to make a buck.
When you increase the tube size, without compensating changes to the MAF voltage maps the car will run lean. This is because the extra airflow capacity has not been accounted for. The MAF sensor is not calibrated for the tube it's in. The MFG works with Bosch to create a tube that matches their intake system (or buys one thats already made, and has a new p/n stamped into it). The tuning is done by the vehicle manufacturer. All that is specified from bosch is the tube size and sensor type/voltage. The tamper proof screws are simply there (forgive me for stating the obvious) to keep regular people from tampering with/damaging the Hot film meter. The tools to remove the screws properly are sold to those who service the cars.
It really isnt rocket science, Bosch wants to make a buck.
Fair point about Bosch, trying to make money, so I presume they make exceptions for BP/BZ and Tischer ?
So if I fit the Dinan Housings then the DME is going to be doing the adjusting. What's confusing for me is the Voltage value that is sent to the DME, for it to then decide how much air is flowing, will have to be different to the case where stock maf housings are used. A different air flow has to occur, if in each case the MAF is suggesting 3V for example, within 0V to 5V, but the DME simply sees 3V and converts this info into an equivalent air flow rate, I think.
So what I am saying is the DME has to be tweaked to understand that its maf sensor is now reading things from within a new environment......I think
Fair point about Bosch, trying to make money, so I presume they make exceptions for BP/BZ and Tischer ?
So if I fit the Dinan Housings then the DME is going to be doing the adjusting. What's confusing for me is the Voltage value that is sent to the DME, for it to then decide how much air is flowing, will have to be different to the case where stock maf housings are used. A different air flow has to occur, if in each case the MAF is suggesting 3V for example, within 0V to 5V, but the DME simply sees 3V and converts this info into an equivalent air flow rate, I think.
So what I am saying is the DME has to be tweaked to understand that its maf sensor is now reading things from within a new environment......I think
Tischer sells them in the tube, from what I recall. No clue about BP or BZ.
Precisely. The DME must be reflashed for them to work properly. The MAF sensor is generic. For example If you fit the Dinan housings, and dont flash the Dinan software your car will be running super lean at idle and throughout the rev range.
If you start with a 2.5" tube which flows X CFM, then move to a 3" tube which flows X+(extra volume) CFM the car won't do anything with the extra air coming in as the injector duty cycles are programmed to a certain air volume based on MAF voltage and RPM. The Voltage and RPM wont match, and the car will just default to the RPM map (which is obviously too lean, due to the additional airflow capacity).
Tischer sells them in the tube, from what I recall. No clue about BP or BZ.
Precisely. The DME must be reflashed for them to work properly. The MAF sensor is generic. For example If you fit the Dinan housings, and dont flash the Dinan software your car will be running super lean at idle and throughout the rev range.
If you start with a 2.5" tube which flows X CFM, then move to a 3" tube which flows X+(extra volume) CFM the car won't do anything with the extra air coming in as the injector duty cycles are programmed to a certain air volume based on MAF voltage and RPM. The Voltage and RPM wont match, and the car will just default to the RPM map (which is obviously too lean, due to the additional airflow capacity).
Great ! So as I said a few posts ago, the Dinan housing cannot be plug and play, and the compensation must be made by Dinan software. Hence there is also NO WAY the VW sensors will work optimally in the M5 tubes, but most of us know that already
My original question remains I suppose: I wonder where BP/BZ get their elements from. I think Bosch wont supply them just to BP/BZ and no one else...unless remanufactured/refurbished perhaps ? If Bosch do supply them then BP/BZ are very lucky.....
Its funny but I can actually imagine Bosch flowing air through a MAF housing with sensor in place and making sure at max air flow for example its showing 5V and perhaps a few more reference points with lower airflows. At the unit retail price of these things I think it is plausible perhaps....especially as you think the flow test the tube on its own.
i think that unless they know for sure that when pre determined air flows through them a known voltage output result is expected and when it passes, and only then, do they ship it off to BMW parts dept for example or even the BMW factory for fitting to new cars. I see your point that they may only flow test the tube, but I reckon it would be ignorant not to do that test with sensor in place.
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