New CTS-v or E39 M5? - Page 6

DouglasABaker · 9th December 2008, 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmyz2

In 2007 Waggoner was paid 16,000,000. GM lost $23,000,000. Do the math.

In 2002 GM made $1,700,000,000. Waggoner got paid $8M.

In 2003 GM made $3,800,000,000. Wagoner got paid $12M.

In 2004 GM made $2,800,000,000. Wagoner got paid $10M.

What math am I supposed to be doing? The math where people cherry-pick the facts to support their point?

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kosmo · 9th December 2008, 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasABaker

In 2002 GM made $1,700,000,000. Waggoner got paid $8M.

In 2003 GM made $3,800,000,000. Wagoner got paid $12M.

In 2004 GM made $2,800,000,000. Wagoner got paid $10M.

What math am I supposed to be doing? The math where people cherry-pick the facts to support their point?

d-

You forgot to mention the use of the corp jet!!!

jclyman · 9th December 2008, 16:44

Doug, one question.

You and Lscman mention the J.D. Power ratings. (They are NOT foreign to me.)

I have owned a lot of cars in 70 years. HOW COME I HAVE NEVER BEEN INVITED TO ANSWER A J.D. POWER STUDY? (And, yes, almost all were new, dealer sold cars.)

Just wondering.

And, where can you get 8 hours of service for $ 500.00? Where I live, it is more like over $ 1,000.00. I know, I got your point.

I don't really think it is fair to judge manufacturers by your dealer experiences, however good or bad they may be. Very, very few dealers are owned by manufacturers ... of any make.

I am distressed that all I hear is VANOS, VANOS, VANOS or carbon build up ... on this site. (Well, almiost all.) I reviewed the poll posted recently and MOST, by far, owners haven't had the dreaded carbon build up ... nor, have I. And, for VANOS problems, for me 2 seconds of VANOS noise on ONE start up in 74,500 miles.

I guess I prefer to be lucky, stay lucky, and enjoy being lucky while it lasts.

(To be fair, I should tell you that I own BMW stock, and don't plan to sell.)

gsfent · 9th December 2008, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jclyman

one question.

I have owned a lot of cars in 70 years. HOW COME I HAVE NEVER BEEN INVITED TO ANSWER A J.D. POWER STUDY? (And, yes, almost all were new, dealer sold cars.)

Just wondering.

Maybe they don't think you drive your cars hard enough??

Great thread. The U.S has caught up a bunch, but after so many years of telling us they have caught the imports (hey, can anyone say VEGA?

),it was hard to believe them. However my recent tour of the auto show showed GM in particular is headed in the right direction. Malibu looks world class and a real value. Cobalt SS is a little cheap, but at slightly over $20k, it seems like a heck of a value. I think the Vette is world class (certainly for the money) and I like the new Caddy CTS-V( although I would wait a year--I am not buying ANYONE's first year car).

But the U.S. auto companies have been short sighted, tying up all their profits in SUV's. Toyota and Honda have stayed the course with fuel efficient cars, increasing market share and thus profits. This was even before the economic meltdown over the last year or so, Toyota for example, was increasing its sales. While BMW and MB may be down, they are not on the verge of bankruptcy. So that distinction belongs to U.S. car companies.

In the end the government will bail them out (at least GM and Ford) ,whether they deserve it or not from an economic standpoint, because there are a lot of issues in having a domestic auto industry, and not just jobs.

Drive what you like, America being a great country, we get to vote with our wallets!!!

Regards,
Jerry

kosmo · 9th December 2008, 18:21

Its all good. Hopefully w/ a little help from the govt (Taxpayers) the Big3(should we rename them to "not so Big3"?!) will focus their efforts on building cars that will sell, like the CTS.
Insofar as warranties , I would not have any problems buying a car from a financially troubled maker. I'd adjust the price accordingly.

jimmyz2 · 9th December 2008, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DouglasABaker

In 2002 GM made $1,700,000,000. Waggoner got paid $8M.

In 2003 GM made $3,800,000,000. Wagoner got paid $12M.

In 2004 GM made $2,800,000,000. Wagoner got paid $10M.

What math am I supposed to be doing? The math where people cherry-pick the facts to support their point?

d-

From MSNBC's John W. Schoen, Senior producer," Last week's news that General Motors lost more than $38 billion wasn't pretty."

From bnet,"
The annual target cash compensation for Wagoner is $5.0 million per annum, which includes a base salary of $2.2 million. So the board could offer Wagoner up to $15 million in severance pay.
Wagoner’s stock-based performance incentives, worth approximately $10 million at December 31, 2007 (common stock at $24.89), can now be cashed in for about $2.6 million. In addition, some 2.9 million incentive options awarded to Wagoner in the last decade at exercise prices between $20.90 a share to $75.50 a share are now worthless.
Upon separation from the company, Wagoner, 55, would be eligible to receive an annual annuity payment of $61,200 from his supplemental retirement plan. He will, however, have to wait until the age of 60 to tap his executive retirement plan, worth an estimated $19.7 million at December 31, 2007. In addition, Wagoner had a 2007 year-end non-qualified deferred compensation account worth an estimated $765,000.

So go do your own cherry picking, pal.

Lscman · 9th December 2008, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jclyman

I admit I don't know much about BMW's current quality, and really don't care too much any more (I am 70, and I still love to drive fast, but don't really need to buy more cars, as I have 5.) BUT, in 600,000 miles of driving BMWs (6, if I counted correctly, 320,000 miles on one), I have had FEWER warranty issues than I can count on the fingers of ONE hand (without even using my thumb). They have been incredibly reliable. And, all had good looks and were FUN!

And, I'm sorry, but there aren't many cars that handle at speed like a BMW.

Shallow, happy, and completely satisfied, thank you.

John.

P.S. I worked for I.B.M. for 17 years and you could call them arrogant, as well. It is an affliction of people who are proud of what they do or build.

I surely can't dispute your personal experiences with BMW. I've seen folks have luck with any number of marques, but that does not mean disturbing trends do not exist.

The arrogance that BMW exhibits goes well beyond being "IBM proud". Maybe you disagree, but many feel IBM's arrogant & inflexible "top dog" attitude in the microsoft era caused them serious financial harm and massive loss of market share. How long did it take for them to realize that OS/2 and token ring was dead? IMO, BMW's arrogance translates to "the consumer is stupid and wrong". This was the case with BMW as they repeatedly place the blame squarely on consumers for undersized clutches failing, pixels burning out every 3 years, 10% of E46 M3 motors scattering in 6 months, plastic radiators grenading every 50K mi and other unexcusable things that stem from flawed or poor design. Do you recall BMW forcing M3 owners under 6mo warranty to buy new motors? I do. That the most anti-consumer strongarm action I ever witnessed from an auto mfr. A Cavaliere or Neon owner would get better treatment. BMW owner community responded with bonafide threats of class action and diligent forums started a statistical failure tracking campaign that led to a positive result and uncovered the truth. BMW was forced to make good on bad design & assembly only after overwhelming consumer pressure and bad press. Their unwillingnees to accept fault is precisely why you must live in the USA to get pixels fixed for reduced cost again and again. There is no other plausible explanation.

My Ford cars show 300K+ odometer readings and reliability that favorably compares with your BMW experience. I own various marques at any given moment, so I can fairly judge them. In the past 10 years, I have owned GM, BMW, Ford and Dodge. By far, the most problematic vehicle has been my 540i, despite seeing the same history, duty and maintenance as the other's.

As for few cars handling like a BMW, this historically-accepted subjective assessment became obsolete about a decade ago and does not seem to apply to amateur car handling contests at all. You see, there's a bit of distortion because folks are largely comparing BMW's world-class premium sedans to much cheaper pedestrian sedans. When BMW performance coupes and sedans are compared to more serious, pricey offerings such as Corvette or CTS-V, they do not excel in handling. In fact, they are getting beat. Realize that Chevy Corvette, Ford GT & Dodge Viper beats the best BMW M cars in handling capability by a longshot. CTS-V slightly outguns the fastest M5 today and the Corvette is in Ferrari league. These days, BMW does not excel in any SCCA road racing or autocross handling venue (against it's asian and domestic US class rivals that are generally MUCH cheaper).

Lscman · 9th December 2008, 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by jclyman

You and Lscman mention the J.D. Power ratings. (They are NOT foreign to me.)

I have owned a lot of cars in 70 years. HOW COME I HAVE NEVER BEEN INVITED TO ANSWER A J.D. POWER STUDY? (And, yes, almost all were new, dealer sold cars.)

Just wondering...........

Maybe you did not meet J.D. Powers study requirements? Owners with a roundel body tattoo are excluded because their ability to fairly judge the product is clouded by emotion and sentimentality.

Regards,
Mr. Spock

kosmo · 9th December 2008, 22:14

I vote LSCMAN as the new "Auto Czar"! Whip the Big3 in shape

DouglasABaker · 10th December 2008, 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jclyman

Doug, one question.

You and Lscman mention the J.D. Power ratings. (They are NOT foreign to me.)

I have owned a lot of cars in 70 years. HOW COME I HAVE NEVER BEEN INVITED TO ANSWER A J.D. POWER STUDY? (And, yes, almost all were new, dealer sold cars.)

Just wondering.

Because you upset them and they don't like you? because the dealer thinks you are too picky and doesn't pass your information along? Statistically unlucky?

Honestly, I couldn't say. I can say that the survey population is small, but I don't know how they select - it may be that you are not in a sampling region.

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