ESS Supercharger Coming Soon - Page 17

wilsodh · 8th September 2008, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rom3n

Here is what AJ said about adding an IC to the stage one kit for those of you that are asking about adding one.

" It's way to complex and costly for no gain with that low boost pressure."

I disagree. 5.5 psi may not be huge boost, but the car's performance will be impacted by lack of an intercooler, especially on warm days.

As I mentioned earlier, I installed two temp sensors on my set up: after the s/c ("temp 1") and after my in-plenum air-water intercooler ("temp 2"). I ran the leads to digital gauges behind my sun visor so I could watch the temps whenever I wanted, and correlate the output to the performance of the car.

Here's what I see:

'Temp 1' (air coming out of the supercharger) is generally 10-20C higher than 'temp 2' (air going into the engine) during routine operation. Very generally, we are talking about approximately 75C vs. 60C with mild ambient temps. When you get into moderate boost (4-5 psi), temp 1 spikes up immediately to well over 100C, while temp 2 remains in the 60's. This is a difference of 40C in intake air temp. This represents a significant difference in terms of power.

On a hot sunny day (88F) cruising down the highway with everything equilibrated, temp 2 might be in the low 70'sC (temp 1 in the low 80'sC). When evening arrives and the outside temp drops to maybe 65F, temp 2 also drops to the low 60'sC to upper 50'sC. I can definitely feel a difference in the car's performance between 65F and 88F ambient temp. When the ambient temp drops further, the car feels even more lively. Supercharged cars love cool weather and a cool charge temp. Generally, I avoid WOT pulls when the weather is hot.. yes, the car is still fast, but why push when conditions are not optimal and the car is not its fastest. If I want a serious run when things are hot, the nitrous IC fogger can bring down the temp.

I should note that my 'temp 1' sensor is right after the s/c. If there is a length of piping between the s/c and intake, we would expect some heat loss from the piping. On the Dinan S3, there is extensive piping length combined with an air-air heat-exchanger, and this accomplishes sufficient cooling for consistent performance.

I echo others in applauding a new affordable FI option coming on the scene. Ryan's suggestion about methanol injection is a good one. This could be an affordable alternative to an intercooler for this set up. The injection pump would kick in automatically under boost. Rather than creating a new methanol reservoir, the system can tap the windshield washer reservoir. Then you would need only to keep an eye on the windshield washer fluid level.

I would definitely have something planned to cool the charge. This kit would be the first example of uncooled FI for the S62. Performance considerations aside, an uncooled 5.5 psi into the high compression S62 might cause me some worry. I might want the mapping on the conservative side to protect the pistons during boost in hot conditions.

Disregarding charge temp is being half-informed about performance from a boosted engine. While 5.5 psi should net a good bump overall, not cooling the charge is leaving horsepower and more consistent performance on the table.

Dave

Olyar15 · 8th September 2008, 21:42

There is no question that an intercooler will help any forced-induction system. However, it isn't unprecedented to have a non-intercooled setup. The Lotus Elise SC has a low-pressure (5psi) non-intercooled setup, and it is down 20hp from the Exige setup with an intercooler. Of course, the Exige will be more consistent in power output especially on warm days or sustained WOT use such as on a racetrack.

In this case, I think the operative words are "cost" and "complexity". The ESS kit does provide a low-cost (for the e39) means of supercharging, and slots nicely below the CA supercharger, which has an intercooler but is slightly more complex and more expensive. Also, I think they are limited by their desire for this to be a bolt-on, no modification kit that can potentially be installed by the home DIYer.

If you look at the CA kit, which is also a no-modification DIY kit, that leads to some design "quirks" such as the placement of the air intake. Also, I worry that the placement of the front intercooler will cause overall coolant temps to increase since you are restricting airflow to the radiator, not to mention that air going to the radiator is being pre-heated by the IC.

A side-mount IC such as what Dinan does may be a better option, but I am pretty sure that the Dinan supercharger is not "bolt-on." Maybe the S3 owners can chime in here on whether there is any relocation of existing components like the alternator or AC compressor in order to get everything to fit.

So in summary, choice is good:

1. ESS system - cheapest SC available, but lack of intercooler means less power, less consistent power, increased potential for detonation which means conservative tune.

2. CA SC - more expensive, still bolt-on, and probably more consistent power output. But air intake location makes it more vulnerable to road damage, and placement of IC means potentially higher engine coolant temps.

3. Dinan SC - Very well engineered but very expensive, and not DIY.

4. Custom from DA or other companies - Expensive and not DIY.

So while it would be great to have it all (a cheap, simple, bolt-on kit with the works), I think the reality of the available space in the engine bay means that it isn't going to happen. Now you just have to figure out how much you are willing to spend and what compromises you are willing to deal with.

Roman@ESS · 8th September 2008, 22:42

All valid points.

Remember the customer this product is targeted for and also remember that you can run a very effective kit without an IC. If you want to go IC and higher boost levels there will be a stage 2 from ESS but like others who make that level of a kit you will pay more for it. If you really want IC on your kit and its a deal breaker then wait for the stage 2 but be prepared to spend a lot more

.

Blockdoc · 8th September 2008, 22:47

Sorry to be a pest, but could you expand on what it would take for a DIYer to complete this "bolt on" installation. Just trying to guage whether I wish to tackle this myself.

Thanks,
Brian

jrhaile · 8th September 2008, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rom3n

All valid points.

Remember the customer this product is targeted for and also remember that you can run a very effective kit without an IC. If you want to go IC and higher boost levels there will be a stage 2 from ESS but like others who make that level of a kit you will pay more for it. If you really want IC on your kit and its a deal breaker then wait for the stage 2 but be prepared to spend a lot more

.

I have to applaud you guys for sticking to your guns...

wilsodh · 8th September 2008, 23:44

Good summary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olyar15

Also, I worry that the placement of the front intercooler will cause overall coolant temps to increase since you are restricting airflow to the radiator, not to mention that air going to the radiator is being pre-heated by the IC.

I have large front-mounted intercooler and see no difference in coolant temp vs. my un-modded beast under a full range of conditions. The only exception is on a hot steamy day idling with the AC on in really bad stop and go traffic for extended periods. This is a tough situation due to lack of air flow. The coolant temp will start to creep up if this idling/no air flow situation persists for too long. Turning off the AC pulls the needle back down to normal (but doesn't make the little woman happy

). I suspect a Zionsville radiator/2-speed fan would cure this.

Dave

Blue Thunder · 8th September 2008, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olyar15

Also, I worry that the placement of the front intercooler will cause overall coolant temps to increase since you are restricting airflow to the radiator, not to mention that air going to the radiator is being pre-heated by the IC.

I have this setup in my car and there are no problems with water temp.

I have driven the car very agressively on the autobahn and on the
Nurburgring in warm weather without any problems at all with water temp.

So this is not really a problem.

gsfent · 9th September 2008, 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rom3n

If you want to go IC and higher boost levels there will be a stage 2 from ESS

.

We understand, the discussion was focused on an IC at the Stage 1 boost levels not for more power, but consistent power.
I don't think the lack of an IC will discourage too many people, especially as the price point keeps getting better!

Regards,
Jerry

alquazi · 9th September 2008, 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rom3n

If you really want IC on your kit and its a deal breaker then wait for the stage 2 but be prepared to spend a lot more

.

Being in Dubai I don't think I have another option to waiting on stage 2 for the IC.
Any idea when that would be ready?

dereki · 9th September 2008, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsodh

I would definitely have something planned to cool the charge. This kit would be the first example of uncooled FI for the S62. Performance considerations aside, an uncooled 5.5 psi into the high compression S62 might cause me some worry. I might want the mapping on the conservative side to protect the pistons during boost in hot conditions.

I wanted to highlight this because I think it is something people seem to be overlooking. Boosting a high compression engine (11 compression ratio) is a lot more risky. I live in south FL and wouldn't run FI without an intercooler.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsodh

I have large front-mounted intercooler and see no difference in coolant temp vs. my un-modded beast under a full range of conditions.

In a past life I had an 03 350Z with a big FMIC and I agree with the above. The radiator still got plenty of air and any change in temp because of the intercooler was negligible.

That said, I'm still interested in this kit, but may need to wait for the IC stage version.

My $0.02
-D