Tires best operating temp / maximum adhesion? - BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums

Go Back   BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums > BMW M5, M5 Touring, M6 and Z8 Forums > E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion

E39 M5 and E52 Z8 Discussion 1998-2003 Advertiser's Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 1.00 average. Display Modes
Old 18th February 2008, 09:56   #1
whatheheck
Moderator
 
whatheheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Earth

Garage: 2009 M6 Convertible, black / tan

Sales Feedback: (4)

Thanks: 3,975
Thanked 2,055 Times in 1,278 Posts
Tires best operating temp / maximum adhesion?

I know it all depends on what brand and what type of tires are used, what the ambient temperature is, and other factors, but typically, to the best of your knowledge and experience - what is generally the best operating temperature for car tires where it provides the best grip / maximum adhesion?
__________________
Dan

Evolve ECU Tune, Tubi Rumore exhaust, BBS RGR rims; Polk Audio Tweeters, 5500K Osram Cool Blue HID,Valentine 1 Radar Detector; Laser Interceptor Laser Jammer; All LED interior lights, LED footwell lights, LED trunk lights, Ultimate Cup Holders, 3rd brake light LED flasher, ash tray delete; LED license plate lights; RPI Ram Air Scoops + Block off plates; BMC Air Filters.......

Last edited by whatheheck; 18th February 2008 at 22:05.
whatheheck is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 18th February 2008, 20:41   #2
bimmernut1
Member, P500, DSC On (>600)
 
bimmernut1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kansas

Garage: Ti Silver M5, Red Porsche C4S, Carbon Black BMW 35i Msport, Tobacco Metallic 911SC

Sales Feedback: (0)

Thanks: 57
Thanked 78 Times in 49 Posts
I found the following link with some optimum operating temperatures shown. I'm talking about summer tires obviously, because discussions of winter tires in the context of optimum grip really doesn't apply since they are designed to perform in the opposite extremes.

I know during the summer, my tires are significantly hotter than in the winter. Since the only sources of heat input into the tires are the road surface and friction generated, it stands to reason they will never reach the optimum temperature for grip during the winter months. In fact, even if the ambient temperture is say 60 degF, the road surface could still be at 40 degF if the previous week or two has been cold. This is somewhat supported by the condensation that frequently forms on the road surface when the ambient air just begins to warm up.

Also, I fired off an email to Toyo and they said they did not have a chart that shows grip versus tire temperature. However, I did find a writeup that shows the exact chart I was looking for (see page 21 of the 2nd link). Although the curve could shift left to right or even the slope change versus manufacturer, it still points out that there is an optimum range for tires to operate.


http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/tiretemp.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=cr4...9rL5oc#PPP1,M1
__________________
2003 Titanium Silver BMW M5
1996 Guards Red Porsche 993 C4S
1979 Tobacco Metallic 911SC
2013 Carbon Black BMW X3 35i M sport

Last edited by bimmernut1; 19th February 2008 at 00:42.
bimmernut1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 18th February 2008, 22:32   #3
whatheheck
Moderator
 
whatheheck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Earth

Garage: 2009 M6 Convertible, black / tan

Sales Feedback: (4)

Thanks: 3,975
Thanked 2,055 Times in 1,278 Posts
Thanks!

Excellent info Mr. bimmernut1!

Thank you!
whatheheck is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 19th February 2008, 00:46   #4
bimmernut1
Member, P500, DSC On (>600)
 
bimmernut1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kansas

Garage: Ti Silver M5, Red Porsche C4S, Carbon Black BMW 35i Msport, Tobacco Metallic 911SC

Sales Feedback: (0)

Thanks: 57
Thanked 78 Times in 49 Posts
No problem.

The interesting part of the graph to me is how steep the curve is and how fast the grip drops off at temps below approximatly 120 degF. I haven't tried to extrapolate down to to the 50-60 degF range. But just eyeballing the chart seems to show the grip could be as low as 60-70%.

I guess that's not a big surprise but still good to be aware of.
bimmernut1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 19th February 2008, 06:36   #5
CSBM5
M5 Expert (>4000)
 
CSBM5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Age: 55

Garage: 2001 M5 LeMans Blue

Sales Feedback: (1)

Thanks: 1,153
Thanked 1,171 Times in 761 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmernut1 View Post
The interesting part of the graph to me is how steep the curve is and how fast the grip drops off at temps below approximatly 120 degF. I haven't tried to extrapolate down to to the 50-60 degF range. But just eyeballing the chart seems to show the grip could be as low as 60-70%.

I guess that's not a big surprise but still good to be aware of.
With summer tires there is a huge step-function like drop off in grip as you approach the glass transition temperature of the compound (which is essentially a phase change). This typically is near and below ~35F. Hence the reason you never want to run them in snow/ice since traction is essentially zero under those conditions. You also want to be aware of the loss of grip when driving on dry pavement in cold weather too. Don't overestimate the potential traction you think is there. When you look at R-compound tires, temperatures below 35F or so can actually damage the tire's rubber compound. Toyo has a warning out for their R-comp tires about storing and/or attempting to use them when temps are below 35F. Also as a regular summer tire ages after many heat cycles, the sensitivity to loss of grip is more apparent as a function of temperature.

You can easily see this with summer tires on the M5 and trying to launch the car. If the ambient temp is 90F versus 50F, there is a huge difference in the launching rpm to be used and the rate at which you can feed throttle in 1st gear without spinning too much. Drop that temp to 30F, and it is yet again a huge difference from 50F.
__________________
Current stable:

2001 M5 LeMans Blue/Silverstone
Dinan: springs, Konis, rear sway bar, monoball bushings, and exhaust;
Ground Control camber plates, Stoptech front BBK, Brake ducts opened,
Evolve AlphaN tune,
OE 9.5" rear wheels all around & 275/35-18 Pilot Super Sport


2011 M3 sedan 6MT Silverstone, no sunroof!
2006 330i sport 6MT Electric Red/Black
2001 Audi S4 6MT -- for sale?
1996 Volvo 850R wagon
1975 CanAm 125MX2

Last edited by CSBM5; 19th February 2008 at 06:39.
CSBM5 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CSBM5 For This Useful Post:
bimmernut1 (19th February 2008), whatheheck (19th February 2008)
Reply

Bookmarks


Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the BMW M5 Forum and M6 Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Loading...

All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:53.



Everything Copyright 2000-2008. Do not use ANYTHING from this site without written permission. All images, graphics, sound files, video files and text appearing on this web site are the exclusive property of m5board.com and are protected under international copyright laws. All images, graphics, sound files, video files and text on this site are for on-screen and on-site viewing and listening only. No part of this web site may be reproduced, copied, saved, stored, manipulated, or used in any form for personal or commercial purposes without the prior written permission of m5board.com. Use of any image or graphic as the basis for another photographic concept or illustration is a violation of the copyright. Any copyright infringement will be prosecuted to the full extent of federal and international copyright laws. M5board.com is an enthusiast board and we don't condone any dangerous activity. Our airfield events are completely safe based on years of experience, we conduct them during clear visibility with mature participants that have several years of experience with high-performance automobiles, large unobstructed run-off zones on sealed off private former military airbases and we clearly mark the braking zones. If inexperienced with high speed driving we do not recommend organizing your own event but attending a high-performance driving school. The use of the term "BMW" on this site is for reference only, and does not imply any connection between m5board.com and BMW AG or BMW North America.