380mm vs. 322 mm-- I am confused! - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Hamann7 · 23rd November 2001, 13:55

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Anyway I was searching the archives for discussions relating to the Movit brake upgrades for the M5. Problem is, I can't find any definitive conclusion on the actual PERFORMANCE difference between the 322 mm 993TT setup (a la Johan's setup) or the 380mm GT2 long endurance setup (a la Nowack and the carbon black M5 in europe).

I am aware of the hub runout situation... so no need to get into that. What I am wondering is, is there a significant stopping distance between 322 and 380mm-- and what I mean is SHEER stopping power, both cold and hot! Johan or Gustav, were you at all able to compare between the two setups?

The most important thing for me is, I am thinking of getting the 322 mm setup like Johan, but I want to make sure that I'm not losing any stopping distance over stock when cold or at least not hot, since the rotors are about 1" smaller than stock. I know that the Porsche brakes are better at heat dissipation and fade-free performance on the track, but what about under normal street conditions? Is the car actually stopping shorter? I am having trouble imagining this, since the stock brakes seem to stop only a bit longer than a 993 TT.

Also, if the 380mm kit busts the wheel bearings, why is Nowack still using this kit as their "big brake" setup? Do they expect the owners to change wheel bearings that often? What if you used the 540 bearings instead?

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I want to make an educated decision when looking into this upgrade!

johann · 23rd November 2001, 14:43

I can assure you that car with 322mm Movit stops at least as with stock brakes even when cold. Imo they stop even shorter but that is only a feeling. When warm they are a lot better.

Unless you improve traction (a lot), the 380 mm will not give you shorter stopping distance.

If you get the 322mm you will not get disappointed.

Note that the stock brakes are really good and for normal street use only there is little need to upgrade the brakes. So unless you don't track your car or drive really realy fast often (like in Germany) there is really no need to upgrade the brakes out of performance reasons. They do look good though and the brake feeling is awesome.

Talk to Nowack or Movit regarding the wheel bearing problem, maybe it has been solved by now. The 380mm require 19" wheels also.

Cheers,
/Johan

johann · 23rd November 2001, 14:48

Hamann7,

Forgot to mention that even if the rotors are smaller then stock the pads are bigger so the area actually braking the car is larger.

Also, the 380mm will last even lonbger than the 322mm brakes before they get overheated. I have never managed to overheat my 322mm brakes and I've tracked the car plenty. I guess you need a faster car and slicks to get to where the 322mm gets too hot.

Cheers,
/Johan

dr. N500 · 23rd November 2001, 17:14

I drove 16 000 Km since Nowack installed 380 mm brakes.
I had no problem with wheel bearings.
Movit refused to fix me with 380 mm, because of this potential problem, but Nowack claims they avoid it by in-house solutions for installation. I did not go into detail about the modification. I just took their word for it. So far, I'm happy with the brakes.
Regards,
Dragos

Hamann7 · 23rd November 2001, 23:49

Johan and Dragos:

Thank you so much for your helpful insight. Those guys at Nowack must be pretty brilliant to solve this problem, when Movit and Ultimate Garage here in the States refuse to sell the 380mm kit to E39 owners!

I would love the Nowack brake upgrade, since I plan to use the 19" BBS LM anyway. From my shop's experience (F1 Motorsport), the LM's are not only lighter, but probably one of the strongest rims out there! There was a customer with a MB E430 slammed (lowered) almost to the ground, and was running 19" LM. He claims that he has gone over potholes, uneven pavement, and all kinds of road hazards here in Southern Cal and is convinced that they are indestructible! I guess these truly are race track wheels. Because all 3 pieces are forged, it is apparently much stronger than other aftermarket wheels, monoblock or multi-piece.

Anyway, back to the subject, the only problem is that it is such a pain in the *** to have the car shipped to Germany for the installation of the Nowack brakes. I wonder if they include their "in-house" solution if I were to order the kit from U.S.

I can't wait until the day I save enough to get the full N500 package. It sounds like a worthy upgrade. Hell, it's cheaper than buying even a 993 turbo used!

I am going to call MOVIT NA or email Nowack and see if I can get the full story on the 380mm brakes.

OH, by the way, are the replacement parts cost (rotors, pads) much different between the 322 and 380mm?

Apples · 24th November 2001, 00:54

Hamann 7
I received my engine back from Nowack last week with all the extras and now with 470rwhp and including the big brake 380mm front and 322mm rear package.
The engine was sent off at the start of August, so it's been one hell of a long time since i had a drive. But I'm driving a 540 as a loaner in OZ this week....mini M5.
It's interesting about the bearing probs that some think may be an issue. I am very confident that Nowack wouldn't put any car on the road that can hit 200mph and have wheel probs. They are not great repliers of emails....as l found out many times...............maybe it's a German thing? They are engine tuners, and thats what they do and do very well.
They don't give away any or many tricks, as there are many competitors out there trying to find out as much as they can about their cars, and even knocking on their doors trying to get some info.
So when they say that the brake package for the M5 is specially prepared l would think that includes sorting out any bearing probs.
I would have hoped that it didn't take as long as it did to get it back, but to here them say that it was one of the strongest if not the strongest engine that they've built, made the wait worth while. Now she sits till the end of Feb waiting for me to return.
I will post some pics of the put back together project in the next week or two.
I have some pics of the parts coming out of the boxes from the other day, including the brakes............so if you want l can post them for a starter???
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Hamann7 · 24th November 2001, 11:08

Apples,

Yes, I would LOVE to see some pics of your Nowack N500 or shall we say N530 upgrade! I think all members of this board have been anxious to see the final product.

So let me get this straight, are you retrofitting all the Nowack parts, like brakes, engine, and exhaust system here in the States? Who is doing the work?

Why exactly won't you be seeing your car until Feb.? Are you currently traveling?

Also, I can't believe that your engine conversion took so long. I thought that the full engine conversion was only supposed to take 10 calendar days...

Thanks for your helpful response. Yes, Nowack definitely sounds like they do what they do very very well.

Perhaps the deutsche mark will get weaker someday so their tuning prices will be a little bit more affordable!

Apples · 24th November 2001, 12:27

That's all i've got at the moment.... I will post a new topic when l get some more pics with it all being put back together next week.
The place is a private BMW service center in Orlando. They have been very interested and excited about the project.
I'm in Australia at the moment, and thats why l won't be back in Orlando till Feb.
I would hope that the Greman DM would get a bit weaker in the future as to give more US customers a look at Nowacks conversion.
The engine conversion is a 20 working days project min. I guess that is was the first US customer and they really wanted to get this really right. But l don't really mind in the end.....but l was getting anxious for some time.
If your got any questions give me a buzz.
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Hamann7 · 24th November 2001, 18:25

Wow those are some cool photos

Gosh, it must have been exciting to receive that huge crate full of goodies-- I don't think Santa could've done any better than that.

You are gonna have the baddest bimmer around!

Question though: do the BBS LM wheels require spacers to clear those calipers? If not, I wonder what the offset is. I'm thinking about picking up those wheels first, but I want to get the right size (if available) so that I don't have to use spacers for those brakes.

Those 380mm rotors are GORGEOUS!

So if you don't mind me asking, what was the total damage for everything?

Apples · 24th November 2001, 23:11

Well as you could imagine it's not a cheap over night project.
Here are some of the costs that i found from the first email Nowack sent me from back in July.
Engine conversion to 397kw 615-630nm... 538hp 455-465lbft
Extra upgrade to full 80mm exhaust system. 50,000DM = US$22,500
The 538hp listed is the total the engine produces at high speed because of the ram effect of the ducting into the engines air boxes
The standing (regular)dyno run Nowack got on my engine was 470rwhp...Nowack say that = 510hp at the engine??? but if you look at other topics on the message board about dyno power loss you could add 12-14% to the 470rphp to get 525hp to 535 hp engine power........l don't know really how much it has, it's all just numbers.
It will be interesting to see if my G-Tec will find a decent number in the area of 510hp+ once l get the new weight for the car sorted out.
They (G-Tec) say that cars with ram ducting will help the hp a bit as the speed increases so will the amount of air being shoved into the engine to help give more reflective hp numbers?

Clutch 2,000DM = US$900
Porsche Movit brakes 380mm front 322mm rear Noack prepared 18,000DM = US$8,500
Suspension Nowack setting 4-springs 4-shocks 4,800DM = US$2,150
Anti roll bars 2,000DM = US$900
Extended speedo to 320-340kph 200-220 mph/taco extended from orange to red from 7,500-8,000rpm 3,300DM = US$1,500
The carbon top was not in the order sheet l looked at, but l think it was around US$3-4,000 extra???
The extras are around US$3-4,000 for engine removal/replace in the USA by a BMW shop and to remove old and add new parts
Your talking 2 days to remove engine and 2 more to replace it and 1-2 more for the other parts. So that may vary on speed and cost per hour that they BMW would charge.
Shipping costs Orlando/Dusseldorf return was US$4,765 (inc old engine block? extra weight)and custom costs on the return US$1,235
I don't know if the old scratched block/pistons/crank was sent back on that large pallet in the last pic, but i think so as it weight on the invoice was 650lbs for the extra item.
I will be sending that to BMW and looking to get the US$5,000 it cost to replace it.
Total cost for the WHOLE project was around US$50,000...
When l look at the cost for this US$130,000 M5 l have everything a Porsche has for the same cost, and plenty more room for some very game passengers and a few sets of clubs and off you go..................so when l look at it it's cheaper then half the price...a 2 for 1 deal.
Attn - GREG.... time to sell the Porsche and tweak the M5 a bit, and have some more room in the garage.
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