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Getrag 280 fluid you use!

43K views 90 replies 23 participants last post by  Bleedsblue 
#1 ·
Gents,

I would like to hear what fluid are you using in your Getrag 280 5 speed trans and share experiences about quality shifting and lonegvity of the synchros etc.

I know these trans. use "ATF" as per recomendation from BMW/Getrag. I did once change the fluid to Castrol Syntrans (can't remember what GL and viscocity it was) and it ran normal I could say, normal shifting etc etc...this until I purchased few gallons of Redline products for the e30 M3, the e34 M5 and the Porsche, to change all the trans and diffs oil with Redline products.

According to Redline web, for the e34 M5 is recomended the D4 ATF for the manual trans (at least last time I checked a year ago, but now seems like they switched to MTL if you search now by model)



But since I did purchase as well other fluids included the MTL 75W-80 GL-4 for my e30 M3 Getrag 265-5 as recomended by the web I used this MTL by accident in my Getrag 280 and used it for a while until my tech ahd an accident with my MAF that kept my M5 away from duty for long time. Now that I'm finally doing some service and fixes to my e30 M3, including to overhaul the Getrag 265-5 I noticed that the MTL was used for my m5 and the D4 ATF gallon was sealed! Big mistake...well, I took off the MTL (saved it after filtering) from the Getrag 280 and filled up with the "correct" D4 ATF and I have been using with it daily.



After some "test" I feel like the MTL was way better fluid for my Getrag 280 in terms of quality shifting, it was way smoother , felt more precise, less effort the shifts vs the recommeded D4 ATF that I'm using now. I did write to Redline tech and told him what I did, he said the MTL won't have any negative effect in the Getrag 280 and it could be smoother operation due their slippery content in the fluid and other components but I would have to switch to D4 ATF.

I don't know if the MTL could damage our synchros in the long term or not, but I loved when the MTL was in my Getrag 280 and now I kinda hate the D4 ATF.

By the way I did use their 75W90 GL-5 Gear Oil for my rear diff and it took care of the annoying noise like "moaan" when the diff was hot doing maneuvers in the parking lot or taking corners at slow speed. Now it operates smooth and no more noises.

-Diego
 
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#2 ·
Funny, just yesterday i was thinking same thing. I used lot of google, some say MTL is fine, some say D4 is fine and some say no no to Redline.
I hope here discuss only E34 Getrag 280 with orange ATF sticker. No 265 or E28 Getrag experiensis because they use different syncro rings.
I use Mobil ATF220. Trans could be better, i want to try MTL or something.

Here few topics.
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e34-m5-discussion/276938-notchy-gear-shifts.html
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e34-m5-discussion/341633-transmission-oil.html
 
#3 ·
Gearbox fluid for Getrag 280

I am about to replace the gearbox fluid in my 1991 E34 M5. The box has the "ATF" sticker on it - but as I understand it I will be better off replacing the fluid with a more "standard manual transmission fluid".

I have previously been running Castrol Syntrans 75w/90 MTF in my (now previous) E28 M5 with no problems. I guess this is also a Getrag 280, though rumours have it that the syncro mesh rings are different.

I guess the Castrol Syntrans is kind of similar to the RedLine MTF (both ar GL-4 spcifications, and with rather similar viscosities).

Anyway, I hope the thread will develop - I am curious:)

Best regards

Tore
 
#4 ·
I remember using Syntrans Castrol, probably the same as yours in my M5, all well until i drained to put by accident the MTL (now running in the D4 ATF Redline) and when I was draining the fluid(Castrol) I found lot of bronze/copper particles or moisture at the bottom of the can. it did worry me a bit, but after using the MTL by accident it ran super smooth. Now that I keep driving my car with the D4 ATF I don't like much the gearshift quality, 100% better was with the MTL!! Thinking seriously to switch back to MTL Redline.
 
#5 ·
Gearbox fluid for Getrag 280



Hi Diego.
Great to hear from you:)
Your experience with the ATF versus the MTL is in line with what I have picked up in other posts.
The finding of metal particles is probably not related to the fluid used. I think it is quite common to find such metal debris attached to the magnet in the plug - after all, there is probably a reason they have put a magnet there :)
I am becoming a bit curius about trying the RedLine MTL. Thoug, I have just ordered a couple of liters of the "Castrol Syntrans B 75w" - this is supposed to be the BMW approved version of the Syntrans product line.

Tore
 
#7 · (Edited)
I had the same question when I bought my M5 last December. A very well known LA independent - who also has a awesome collection of 10 vintage BMW's said to use BG Syncro Shift<sup><sup>®</sup></sup> II.

Only been using it for a few months, but I DID get better shifting in my compromised 280 gear box. It has 2nd and 3rd syncro issues, and the B&G product has reduced the grinding.

https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/drive-line/bg-syncro-shift-ii/
 

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#8 ·
I'll have to try the BG SynchroShift 2. I currently use Redline MT-90, recommended for the G280 by Mike Miller (Roundel tech editor) and several others. My 3rd and 4th gear synchros were seriously compromised when I bought the car 75,000 miles ago. I'm really dying to order a G420, but I just don't have $4500......

Personally, I use RedLine MTL in all manual BMW gearboxes except the G280, and MT90 in that trans.
 
#9 ·
Here is my contribution: My car had the transmission rebuilt in 2005 by Jim Blanton. Because of this (and other threads) I was in the act of contacting his shop for their recommendation and I noticed at the bottom of the invoice for the rebuild, it states that ONLY Redline MTL is allowed for warranty purposes.

So, for rebuilt ones, one true expert recommends only Redline MTL. For what it is worth. Now that was 10 years ago, and perhaps there is a newer one that is truly better? That is beyond my experience.
 
#10 ·
Jim Blanton is absolutely an expert. Mike Miller of Roundel is too; he recommends RedLine MT-90 for this box. The 2 fluids are very close to one another, the MT90 is a tiny bit thicker. I use the MT90, and I use the MTL in every other BMW manual gearbox.
 
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#11 · (Edited)
Use what you want. I have nothing against Red Line MTL. I have it in my E28, but will be changing to B&G when it's time. Redline MTL has been around for decades. I've talked to Jim Blanton a few times about my transmission in the last month. I'm not sure he's even rebuilding them anymore. The SoCal shop owner who put me on to B&G use to run Redline MTL, but has switched to this. He did go into some discussion about tranny fluid choices - and what some people use - even saying that some favor a mixture of different oils.

He refreshed a vintage motor for BMW last year for a show, so he knows of what he speaks.

Good Luck.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Gents, Please note that four different versions of teh Getrag 280/5 exists

1) Getrag 280/5.22 (M88/3 powered cars)
1) Getrag 280/5.50 (S38B35 powered cars and replacement for the 280/5.22 for M88/3 powered cars)
2) Getrag 280/5.51 (S38B36 powered cars)
3) Getrag 280/5.52 (S38B38 powered cars)

Whilst they share their design and have identical transmission ratio's, their differ slightly in construction and lubrication requirements.

- The Getrag 280/5.22 haver a green sticker that states 'special oil'. The installation manual for my E28 M5 (DC91) only allows for Mobil SHC 630 transmission fluid.

- This could be the case for the Getrag 280/5.50 as well, but I do not know (can someone please confirm?)
- The other two require mineral ATF transmission fluid as stated by their orange stickers.
 
#15 ·
As Raymond wrote MINIRAL fluid,, he got my attention

on gearboxes,, diffs etc etc, it is very important to use MINIRAL oil

why is that,,,

if you use the fully full synthetic oil,, the lubrication is SO GOOD that you will be having trouble with the synchro,, hard to get in gear etc etc after some time..

this is the same in differential with roller bearing,, the oil is so good that the roller starts to float,, NOT JOKING,, and by some time it will miss the shape,,((total oval)) and start damaging the outer/inner wall of the bearing,,

it is also the same if you use fully synthetic oil on motorcycle gearboxes.. after 1000 km or so it is almost impossible to disengage,, many owners are well known about that

on other hand,, using FULL synthetic on bearings in engines etc etc is fantastic
 
#18 ·
Fact is that the lubrication requirements for the latter Getrag 280/5.51 and 280/5.52 versions differ to those of the earlier versions, however I can imagine that many are confused because of this because everyone talsk about the 280/5.

Redline for instance gives the right advice; MTL for the E28 M5 transmissions and D4 ATF for the E34 M5 transmissions. Yes, off course, this points to a difference in internal construction, but I am not going to disassemble my spare 280/5.22 to investigate.

According to the inspection II bill, my E28S M5 runs on regular SAE80 gearbox oil, but since this is now 13 years of age (15k km of service), this needs to be changed in the enxt months. Redline might be a good option.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Oil discussions always border on religious discussions; everyone spits and growls that their choice is the best. Nonetheless, I'll add my fuel to the fire:

The oil technology in 2015 is far superior to the oil technology in 1990. I would never consider using dinosaur oils in my M5, because they are grossly inferior to synthetics. Certainly, everyone's got their own favorites, and everyone believes a different "authority".

For my own '91 M5, I use Redline 10/60 engine oil during track season, LiquiMoly 5/40 in the winter. I use Redline MT-90 always, in the gearbox; although I have tried MTL, SynchroShift, and D4. I use Redline Shockproof in the diff.

Here's a link to the RedLine site, quoting the significance, and the design of their gear oils, as regards "too-slippery" oils, for synchro use:
Red Line Synthetic Oil - Gear Oil for Manual Transmissions

Some people say you shouldn't use synthetics in older cars, because they are to thin, or too slippery, and therefore they leak past old seals. But of course, all those concerns are from dinosaur mechanics who don't realize that synthetic oil manufacturers had additives for that, decades ago.

Of course, I suppose you could run an old M6 on Michelin TRX tires, too....but then, if you try a Pilot SuperSport, you'll cry.

Just my 2 cents guys, don't be mad....

(Oh, the RedLine site lists MTL for a '91, but D4 for a '93 M5....my sticker says ATF for my '91, but personally, I never use ATF in manual boxes, which agrees with Bimmerworld, Turner, and others.
 
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#20 ·
You make great points and I hope stopped this from turning into point, counterpoint on oils. There has been good input and I learned about the versions of the 280 trans. I'll add this - if anyone is interested in B&G products - the tranny fluid can be hard to find. In both CA and here in IN, I ended up hooking up with the distributor via the web to get some. I have no affiliation what so ever, just FYI.
 
#21 ·
I agree 100% that B&G makes truly excellent products; I used 44k as recently as Friday, on a customer E28 535. I would not hesitate to use any of their products.
 
#23 ·
Um, please let me ask, Mr. Moderator; does this mean that you think my statement that synthetics are superior to dinosaur oils is an "opinion", and not a fact?

And wasn't the original question "What oil do you use"? Isn't that therefore asking for opinion, anyway?

And isn't "As far as I am concerned" prelude to an opinion?
 
#25 ·
"Redline for instance gives the right advice; MTL for the E28 M5 transmissions and D4 ATF for the E34 M5 transmissions."
"Redline MTL is listed as a synthetic."
"so is mobile sch 630"
"I use Mobil ATF220. Trans could be better, i want to try MTL or something."

Well. it really doesn't seem there's much disagreement here about synthetics.
 
#26 · (Edited)
statement that synthetics are superior to dinosaur oils is an "opinion", and not a fact?
In order to make such a statement, one has to have acquired some essential knowledge or at least have access to that. Whilst I cannot assess that you have that knowledge (or not), I do know that making such a statement can be opposite to the truth because as Eero already shared with us, there are excellent mineral oil’s on the market that also meet the requirements for or engines, gearboxes, drivetrains and hydraulic systems.

I agree with you that oil-debates can be messy, abject and full of opinions and as far as the M88 / S38 engines are concerned (I have both), I studied this matter to obtain facts before forming an opinion. Using the term synthetics may be confusing because a lot of oils are marketed as being synthetic, but most of them originate from Hydro-isomerised group III base-oils obtained through normal refinery processes.

This is misleading to say the least because synthetics is used to indicate a performance level. This resulted in a large legal battle between the MobilTM Oil and CastrolTM organizations before NAD court that wasn’t closed before 1999 when it was ruled (in Castrol’s favor) that without a clear description of synthetic, this usage of this term was not restricted to group 4 (SHC) or group 5 base-oils (Esther) and thus may also be used for mineral base-oils that perform equally as well !

In order to learn more, I took my research over a different angle and learnt that the oil-origin is not the issue, but proper lubrication and protection requirements are. Granted, the industry has to take into account environmental requirements and service life, but to be honest, they can be stolen from me when I have to compromise longevity for the environment. In essence, I learnt that there is no such thing as a bad engine-oil regardless of its origin, but only for right application. This learnt to me that mineral engine oil’s such as Brad Penn and Valvoline VR1 may perform equally well or even better as most modern synthetics for older engines such as ours.

IMHO, the same applies to transmission oils, but who I am to oppose to the original requirements from the manufacturer without having all the knowledge ? So if a manufacturer states mineral 'someting', I tend to adhere unless I can form myself an educated opinion.
 
#27 ·
Thank you Raymond, and Eero. It as not my intent to be argumentative, and I agree with much of what you both say. I believe that it is crucial to use the correct synthetic for any given application, and of course that the correct dino oil is preferable to an incorrect synthetic.

I use RedLine oils, which are true (Group 5) full synthetics, and the MTL and D4 are very well accepted amongst many BMW authorities. But as stated by someone else earlier in the thread, we'll all use what we want.

This thread began by asking for opinions and individual experiences, I've shared mine, and I will shut up now.
 
#28 ·
my sedan, which has it's original gearbox with 190k km, and the "atf only' lable. I tried MTL, gear change was a bit notchy, especially when cold. I tried redline D4 atf, and it really wasn't much different. Then, based on a different thread, i tried mobil non synthetic ATF (which would be a comparable OE oil, i think) and it really did improve the shift quality.

My touring does not have it's original gearbox, it does not have a label, but i'm fairly certain it's a g280 from a 3.6 (low mile US parts car). D4 atf was not good, mtl was a little better, but i took some advice from another M5 owner and used a 50/50 mix of mtl and redline 90wt, and that's what is in it now.

My e28, i've only had for a few weeks, and put the mt90/mtl mix in that (no label on the gearbox, but it is the car's original trans with the vin tag). The gearbox oil that was in it was very old, and this is much better, but i may look for the oe mobil to try in that as well.
 
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#29 ·
my sedan, which has it's original gearbox with 190k km, and the "atf only' lable. I tried MTL, gear change was a bit notchy, especially when cold. I tried redline D4 atf, and it really wasn't much different. Then, based on a different thread, i tried mobil non synthetic ATF (which would be a comparable OE oil, i think) and it really did improve the shift quality.
That is what is on my mind. This http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e34-m5-discussion/276938-notchy-gear-shifts.html#post3420330 says quite clearly, synthetic is not proper for old ATF labeled box.

As i wrote trans could be better, im not sure. Old Getrag is never good as modern boxes. Maybe it is now best it can be with Mobil ATF220. I stick to it, it´s cheap and it works ok.
 
#32 ·
Someone in another thread mentioned that this contributor is not a human being. Weird. Why would this "not a human being" be here? Do robots prefer synthetic or dinosaur? ;););)
 
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