Folks, I just read an article in Total BMW (UK) where a guy had chosen to buy a M535 rather than an M5. His reason was that the M5 engines, particularly the 3.8, are not the most durable and that buying an M5 now is like playing Russian Roulette (presumably referring to the likelyhood of an engine rebuild being required).
So I was interested in your views on
1. The 3.8 being less durable than the 3.6
2. The likelyhood of catastrophic failure of a 3.8
3. Do you agree with him ?
M535 - That`s the old E28 with the 2 valve/cylinder M30 engine in isn`t it ??
So, really he`s saying that he`d rather a non-M car altogether.
I don`t think the 3.8 is any less reliable than the 3.6, which in itself wasn`t any less reliable than the 3.5 version.
If anything, I`d have thought that any inherent weaknesses would have been addressed through the years, making the 3.8 the most bulletproof of them all.
If I have to call each engines weakpoints, then here goes, purely from a hearsay point of view, I`m not a mechanic, and certainly not a BMW M specialist mechanic.
M/88 E28 M5 engine - Sheer age now, plus the single timing chain.
S38B36 E34 M5 engine - Age, oil leaks, gaskets around cylinder one, timing chain around 200,000 miles, valve train on these 10yr old plus cars, again, really just wear and tear as miles creep up to 200k. Clutches need replacing immediately upon first sign of slippage, immediately.
S38B38 E34 M5 engine - Misfires due to failing coil packs, not expensive, occasional MAF meter issues, clutch must be replaced on very first sign of slippage.
Apart from that, regular good oil changes, valve clearances every 20 to 30k miles to prevent a possible burnt valve. Treat any problem early, use the right spark plugs on all engines, proper 1/2 BMW coolant 1/2 distilled water, replace engine hoses at high miles or very first sign of fatigue.
PS. M30 engine owners - Cam wear £1500 please at 120-150,000 miles ???? LOL.
As for whether I agree with him. The running of any M car is more than a non-M car. Easy.
But, I bought mine for the power to weight ratio, not the running costs or the looks.
E28 M535i M30 non-cat verison with 10:1 compression ratio, produces 218 hp (DIN) at 5,200 rpm and 224 lb/ft of torque at 4,000 rpm.
E28 M535i M30 catalyst version with an 8:1 compression ratio, produces 185 hp (DIN) at 5,400 rpm and 209 lb/ft of torque at 4,000 rpm.
E28 M5 M88 - The M88 is the non-catalyst version of the S38 engine. With a 10.5:1 compression ratio and a single-row timing chain, it is identical to the one found in the M635CSi coupe. Power is rated at 286 hp (DIN) at 6,500 rpm with 251 lb/ft of torque at 4,500 rpm. The M88 can be identified by the inscription on its cam cover: the propeller Roundel plus the words “BMW” or “M Power.”
E28 M5 S38 - The S38 is the “clean” version of the engine, exclusively available in the E28 M5 in North America. It utilizes a duplex (double-row) timing chain and lower 9.8:1 compression designed to work with catalytic converters. This reduced the horsepower to 256 hp (SAE) or 260 hp (DIN) at 6,500 rpm and torque to 243 lb/ft at 4,500 rpm. The S38 has the inscription “BMW M Power” on its cam cover but no Roundel.
E34 M5 - S38B36 - 315bhp, 265lb/ft. Mine has the earlier diff for slightly higher acceleration, slightly lower top speed. Nice.
E34 M5 - S38B38 - 347bhp, 295lb/ft, but the torque spread is much better. The 3.6 engine is a screamer!!
Hope this answers you.
Ivan.
__________________
"Never enter Karussell when on the brakes! I have gone round there on the roof, I know what I'm talking about." ~ Sabine Schmitz
PS. I`d say the biggest fear on a 3.8 car is the cost of replacing the EDC-III shocks fitted to some cars. There are loads of threads on it but basically expect £500+ per corner...
They do last a while though.
Ivan.
__________________
"Never enter Karussell when on the brakes! I have gone round there on the roof, I know what I'm talking about." ~ Sabine Schmitz
Very comprehensive reply, thanks. I think I was wrong on the 'M535'. It was definitely an E34. Think it was the sport with lots of M stuff on it.
Having driven a number of 3.6s and 3.8s (but still not bought one ) I found that the overall feel of the 3.8 with good condition shocks was superior. So even though the EDCs are expensive, i'd want them.
Someone mentioned on another thread something about the EDCIII becoming non-exclusive end of 2003. What's that all about ?
If it was the bit of the magazine with the reviews of cars they`ve found for sale around the country, was it the white one in the current issue ??
That was advertised and badged as a Alpina B10. Not the BiTurbo B10, just the B10.
The VIN wasn`t known by Sytner BMW, the official Alpina agents for the Uk. Turns out the car wasn`t complete, just had Alpina badges, interior trims, the correct wheels and gearstick, the LSD with the fins on etc etc, they`d even put the correct shocks on apparently.
From what I understood from the article, it was a WBA VIN standard 535i Sport which had had the Alpina parts fitted at a foreign dealer (Germany), then imported to the UK.
The steering wheel was wrong, the standard M-Technic item rather than the wooden Alpina one.
There was no mention of whether the engine was the 260bhp B10 unit with the new pistons etc etc, I suspect that the job was just the cosmetics, and it was a standard 211bhp M30 535i engine.
Nice car, although I`m not a fan of white paint. Hope it went to a good home.
Ivan.
__________________
"Never enter Karussell when on the brakes! I have gone round there on the roof, I know what I'm talking about." ~ Sabine Schmitz
I noticed your comments on replacing a clutch at the first sign of slippage - why is it so important to do it immediately? Does it damage other parts?
Recently I accelerated hard in 2nd coming off a service station slip road onto the motorway, and think (was concentrating on avoiding lorries) I noticed the revs go up slightly too fast for the movement of the car. Since then I've done a couple of hundred miles, including hard accelerating off roundabouts in 2nd, then in 3rd, all with no signs of slippage. If it had slipped the first time, would it have continued to slip?
Just occasionally (four times in two years, three under full bore 1st gear acceleration, once when dropped to third hard) the clutch pedal "sticks" down, and pops back up under its own steam taking about 4-5 seconds to do so.
Obviously a driver isn`t expecting this, and under full bore, the pedal down, change gear, pedal up is lightning fast. As you don`t realise the pedal hasn`t come up, you press the accelerator expecting to go go go.
Hence either the revs going through the floor, or as I had in third, the clutch coming up really slowly, so the revs climbing as if the clutch was slipping, because effectively it was. The plates were closing but the sheer power of the engine in anger mode were preventing the unit engaging until the pedal reached fully up. This was in third overtaking, and sounds exactly what you had in second gear, the revs rising as if the clutch was slipping. When you "test" it later, there is no slip, you can accelerate hard in every gear, no slip.
My mechanics say it`s something to do with the master or slave cylinder, and only happens when the clutch pedal is forced down very hard, very fast. (The adrenalin does it!!).
They say that for the meantime, it`s not worth the costs of investigating further, but the moment it gets worse, then they`ll do it.
"Real" slippage.
There were two or three thread on this site which mentioned that after a slipping clutch became apparent (due to normal wear), that when the cars went in for the job, the garages/dealers said that the flywheels and plates were badly scored, necessitating replacement of more parts than the clutch unit alone.
This adds dramatic costs to the bill.
This is accentuated in the 3.8 cars, as I understand they use a dual-mass flywheel, an expensive unit compared to the basic flywheel in a 3.6 car.
One member here said that he felt the clutch slip for the first time one day, used the car gingerly for one day, maybe 50 miles. When the car (a 3.8 iirc) went into the next day, it needed all the extra work.
Moral of the story seems to be that this is a weak point of the cars, and needs to be addressed immediately the first sign of a slipping clutch is encountered.
Ivan.
__________________
"Never enter Karussell when on the brakes! I have gone round there on the roof, I know what I'm talking about." ~ Sabine Schmitz
Last edited by IvanDias; 21st August 2003 at 11:51.
Hi everyone,
I enjoy reading all about "our" cars.
Mine is a 1992 Touring and has 203,000 Kms.
Other than the water pump, the clutch,which was changed, and valve clearance,which is being done now, it has had no big mishaps.
Yes my shocks are gone but..I try not to notice as I'm triyng to find a way to get a discount (EDC Nurb is a costly option).
Many small things I've done myself (lights in dashboard,
loom to rear all wires were cut, calipers were stuck,lights were
off in gear lever as wire was cut, exhaust, noisy tailgate,
etc.).
If you consider the kilometers on the clock and the fact that those who had it before me were not really careful and paranoid like me, I believe that this car is outstanding in reliability; one just has to look after it and be careful to repair anything as soon as it fails.
It is just a beautiful machine and a joy to drive.
Pity I'm in California and the car is in Rome so I do not get to drive it that much.
One member here said that he felt the clutch slip for the first time one day, used the car gingerly for one day, maybe 50 miles. When the car (a 3.8 iirc) went into the next day, it needed all the extra work.
Moral of the story seems to be that this is a weak point of the cars, and needs to be addressed immediately the first sign of a slipping clutch is encountered.
Ivan.
That was me!
I got my second one replaced two weeks ago (yes I am hard on the clutch) but as soon as it slipped once (i.e. put it into 3rd at full throttle and no acceleration corresponding to rev rise) I put it in for a replacement clutch.
The clutch itself is something like £320 and I got mine fitted with new brake pads for £460 at an independent (although they probably get a trade price for the clutch of £250 anyway).
Last time the clutch went it took the flywheel, release bearing, release fork and sleeve for a total of about £1k - the flywheel being £400 or so - and none of it covered by warranty hence I told them where to stick their warranty this year!
I have found out however that AP do a 240mm clutch (for the M3 Evo, which seems to be the same as the M5 clutch) - so there may be an upgrade path to match an lightened flywheel as well.
__________________ "If you're not producing skidmarks you're not trying hard enough"
Originally posted by IvanDias If anything, I`d have thought that any inherent weaknesses would have been addressed through the years, making the 3.8 the most bulletproof of them all.
[/b]
Ivan,
That is a bold statement. Here is my say on the 3.8 vs 3.6 reliability debate as I posted recently on teh E34 ///M5 mailing list. I have to say that this topic is rather subjective and thus opinions may vary.
Hello,
I think you meant me.
The reason that compared to the S38B36, more S38B38 engines need an overhaul or replacement is that it operates at the M30 engine block's design limits. The spacing between the bore's is only 5.4mm, where as this for the M88/3, S38B35 and S38B36 is 6.6mm.
Normally, this should not lead to any problems at all, provided the previous owners used and maintained their cars well. Unfortunatelly this is not the case. The first owner used it mostly for daily transportation and followed the maintenance scheme. The second owner usually does the same, but the third, fourth owner? Usually this group starts to neglect their cars as they bought ///M5's in their price dips. Especially now the youngest cars are already 8 years old, they need more attention and preventive maintenance then what is required for younger cars.
This leads to higher maintenance bills that many current owners can't afford as they bought their cars as a bargain basement opportunity and didn't concider the true running cost. When they find out the true cost, they start cutting corners in maintenance and drive it untill it breaks.
Kenn Little and Paul de Witt often mentioned that the E34 ///M5 isn't a car for the thin wallet. After owning my E34 ///M5 for over 4 years now, I can only agree. It breaks my hart when I see E34 ///M5's breaking apart bc. their owners couldn't afford the repair bills or bc. the parts alone are worth more then the etire car. Unfortunatelly, in Europe, many 3.6's are not reparaired when they need a new engine, gerabox or even suspension. Why spend 5k Euro or more to a car when one can buy a 3.8 for even less?
The good nwes is that there are a few 3.8's left that are still warranted by BMW's Europlus programm. This gives you an insurance for expensive parts as the engine and gearbox. How many 3.8's would still exist today if it wasn't for this warranty?
Occasionally one can still find nice cars in enthusiast hands. At the moment the number of surviving E34 ///M5's decreases with every day meaning that the choise of good cars is low. Some very nice MY95 E34 ///M5's especially the tourings) from the first owner and with low mileage already command more money then MY99 or MY00 E39 ///M5 that can be found readily in Germany starting from 25k Euro. If the E60 ///M5 is released by the end of 2004, I can already predict that by that time, early E39 ///M5's between dealers sell for less then 10k Euro.
Then, the E39 ///M5 takes over the role that the E34 ///M5 now fullfulls, a bargain basement thouroughbread performance car.
) I found that the overall feel of the 3.8 with good condition shocks was superior. So even though the EDCs are expensive, i'd want them.
Here is my say on the 3.8 vs 3.6 reliability debate as I posted recently on teh E34 ///M5 mailing list. I have to say that this topic is rather subjective and thus opinions may vary.
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