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Old 18th August 2002, 23:15   #1
Donati
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Brake fluid, what to choose?

Hi
My brother and I was at Sturup Raceway today, for a meet with
the Danish BMW club, where they had arranged professional
race-instructors.
This was fun, and educating (dont think i'll ever master "heal-toe" ).
You can download my photos from the session here:
http://www.scooter-racing.dk/m5/stur...18-08-2002.zip
Aprox 2,7mb

But as the track was very small (1040meter), and had several 2nd
gear 180turns there was a lot of braking going on, and one time i
had been on track for maybe 10-15minutes, and went into the pitlane
for de-briefing, the car was parked for maybe 5minutes, and then i went
out on the track to go around and pick up the flag-guys. This time i was
fortunately going around real slow with no need for braking, this was
pretty lucky because at the first flagpost where i was to stop and pick
up a guy, i pushed the brakepedal and it just went to the floor with no
resistance, and no stopping of the car at all (had to use handbrake to
stop).
When we got back to the pitarea i parked the car, and only after
15-20minutes there was coming some pressure back in the brakesystem.

I am pretty certain this is caused by bad brakefluid, so im going to have
it changed. But what should i go for?
What does this "Dot-3, Dot-4, Dot-5" mean? is it a quality marker?
something with temperature capabilities?
Im thinking i will get some fluid with a different color (tip from George
K / Konstantin), poor it in the fluid container and open the bleeders on
the calipers, and then just let it drip untill the new color fluid is coming
out at all corners.
Is this the way to do it?

(Posted this question on the Yahoo E34 M5 maillist as well).
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Old 19th August 2002, 20:53   #2
IvanDias
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Brake Fluid Change ;

3 methods, pressure, vacuum or pedal.

Pedal is best avoided if possible, although it is "free" as you don`t have to buy anything. The idea is (for pedal) to loosen the caliper bleed screw then press the brake pedal to pump the fluid through. Problem is that the pedal will go down further than normal. I have heard from several places that the pistons in the master and slave cylinder go in further than normal, ie into "unused" stroke, and this can rip the seals used to going just a certain smoothed bore distance.


Pressure and vacuum are fairly similar.

Pressure;
A bottle of fluid attaches by a hose to the brake fluid reservior. There is a second hose which goes to a pressure source, often a hand pump (like a garden sprayer) or more often, to your spare tyre. Important. You MUST have the spare at a very very low 10-14psi, the 46ish psi of the fully inflated spare will damage the brake system.
Basically, you open the valve on the "bottle", then undo the brake caliper screw. The pressure from the tyre fills the bottle with air, which forces the new brake fluid into the reservior, which forces the old fluid out the brake lines.
If I recall the fronts should be done, then the rears.
Finally, watch out that the bottle does not empty and just air get forced into the system, as when it (air) reaches the master/slave cylinders it gets problematic.


Vacuum;
Similar. This time a pump gets connected to a hose which connects to the brake caliper bleed screw. You open the brake fluid reservior, then pump away. The fluid gets sucked out by the wheels, and you add new fluid into the reservior as it dips. When the fluid goes clear, that wheel is done. Repeat the other wheels.

All of the above are much easier with a friend to help.





The Bentley manual covers it well, there is also information on the BMWE34 website here


If I recall then a pressure kit from the likes of your average auto store is about $30 (£20) which uses the spare tyre as a source.



As for the fluid, the DOT rating (from memory, sorry if I`m wrong, but I`m sure I`ll be corrected !!!), there is now only numbers 3,4,5 available. The rating is how hygroscopic the fluid is, ie how quickly it will absorb water from the enviroment. The higher the rating, (eg Dot 5 racing style fluid) this will provide the best performance, but will quickly deteriorate in comparison to the DOT 3 and 4.
I have a vague notion that the higher numbers can also absorb more heat due to their formula, ie higher boiling point (assuming no water absorbed due to fluid age), but that may be incorrect.



I believe the M5 needs DOT 4 as standard, but DOT 5 won`t harm anything. Whatever you use, the fluid will need changing at the least once a year as part of routine maintenance.

I don`t think that you will need DOT 5 unless you are very very serious about huge braking and hit the track regularly.





Just to say, in case you didn`t know, the "fade" that brakes have is mainly due to the fluid boiling. (assuming your pads aren`t cooked and the rotors broke!!)

What happens is that the fluid boils, producing gases. Gas compresses, so your braking force goes to compressing this gas instead of forcing the pads onto the brakes rotors.

Brake fluid is hygroscopic as I said, it absorbs water. When this happens, it has the effect of lowering the boiling point of the now contaminated brake fluid. It is easier to boil (steam!!) the fluid, and hence the fade again as this gets compresses under braking.



Don`t get too hung about the fluid though. A yearly change is OK for 99.9% of road users as opposed to racers. There was an excellent link on the E39 area recently, from a few brake experts.

They correctly pointed out that the brake system must be considered as a whole. The pedal presses, the master and slave cylinders take a little slack, the fluid tries to compress, the brake lines expand a little, the pads get pressed once the slack in the calipers gets taken up. Finally friction starts to slow the disk, and finally the tyre contact patch actually starts to exert braking force against the road, and this is what stops you. So all parts must be in working order for the brakes to be effective.

Phew !!



Ivan.
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Last edited by IvanDias; 20th August 2002 at 17:23.
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Old 20th August 2002, 13:48   #3
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Some general tips

Don't forget the braided hoses to stop any swelling in the brakelines.

Make sure you do not put the handbrake on when you stop or you could end up with the brake stuck on.

Ensure you do at least one 'cool down' lap to get some cold air into the brakes – i.e. 40mph round the track so you don't need to use the brakes.

You could always upgrade the brakes to the later M5 set-up or the new AP-Racing ones.
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Old 20th August 2002, 17:00   #4
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hi there

BMW specify dot 4 braking fluid for the entire BMW range,the difference being that for high performance vehicles the specify that the fluid should be changed yearly and every 2 years for the rest of the range, the dot rating is related to the boiling point of the fluid, the higher the dot rating the higher the boiling point.

As mentioned in the previous posts brake fluid is hygroscopic, which basicaly means it absorbs water, even the moisture present in ambient air, thats why you should always use new brake fluid from a new sealed container when replacing or topping up the fluid in the brake system.

Be carefull when choosing a dot 5 brake fluid some are not compatible with ABS systems and some of the racing type fluids are so prone to absorbing moisture that need to be replaced on a regular basis which isnt practical on a road car, although the are now quite a few ones which dont suffer from any these drawbacks.

I hope this helps

Regards

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Old 20th August 2002, 19:48   #5
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Ivan Dias, Mmm-Five & jrturbo:

Thanks for the great advice, i think i have what i need to do the fluid switch now.
(i have bought some Castrol Response D0T4 fluid, and is going to see if the local car-accesories store have some pressure bleeder thingie tomorrow).

Hopefully i will never again experience total loss of braking capabilities
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Old 25th August 2002, 03:34   #6
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I've been very happy with Ate Superblue DOT 4 brake fluid.It has a high boiling point and works well on the track.You may want to buy some Speedbleeder brake bleeding nipples-
http://www.speedbleeder.com
You can bleed your brakes easily by yourself after each track session and not have any problems.I would strongly suggest brake ducts if you will be tracking your car a lot.
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Old 30th August 2002, 02:26   #7
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I agree with Mel 100%. I have been using Ate super blue for years in my road cars and my SCCA IT car it is perfect for 99% of the spirited (on and off track) that the M5 begs for

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