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Oil thread with Lab Analyst

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#1 · (Edited)
Hi,

Lab analyst on engine oil and engine internal condition.

Post your data.

Regards,
Anri
 

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#170 · (Edited)
First of all, I want to say thank you to Anri for sharing his knowledge. For some, his response may seem confronting, but in essence, we use different words, but basically say the same.

In the meantime, lots of info has been shared, questions asked and answers given. From a moderator’s perspective, I really appreciate the level of the discussions. It’s great to see what one can achieve with sharing fact based information. The real challenge is to summarize all this info in a knowledge page, something that would require almost a business analyst. But for starters, I think we can still agree on the following:

[1:] The shorter stroke S38’s (84,0mm and 86,0mm), should not suffer from conrod-bearing wear provided that the oil is frequently changed with intervals that are much shorter than the factory recommended interval (circa 5000km)

[2:] The preventive conrod-bearing replacement advice that is recommended by some European specialists reflect their observations with cars that have seen either (1) frequent and sustained high engine loads and / or (2) maintained according to the factory maintenance scheme (oil replacement every 7500km).

[3:] Don’t use long-life engine oils.

[4:] Don’t use low viscosity oils below 15W40 or 10W60, at least not those that do not meet the HTHS and ZDDP requirements of the originally recommended 15W40 grade engine oil ==> Q1 What about Mobil1 Peal Life 5W50 (previously Rally Formula 5W50 and factory approved for the S14B25)?

[5:] Synthetic engine oils do not offer additional benefits

[6:] Our engines need ample amount of ZDDP (>1000ppm of Phosphorous)

[7:] ZDDP decays proportional to its use, however the rate of decay depends per engine, but we do not have any factual data to state a number, not even as a rule of thumb!

[8:] Unlike what its name suggests, Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 is not a long-life engine oil. It’s a damn good replacement for TWS and we already have at least two UOA’s to prove that.

[9:] Following points one to eight, we will shorten the replacement interval on at least the ///M cars. The program for the next few months will therefore be:

///M-cars
1018231 (E28S M5): Oil change next week; 5228km on the current oil (Mobil1 EL 10W60)

GD55450 (E34S M5): Oil change September; ca 10k km on the current oil (Mobil1 EL 10W60). Robert already stated that he will reduce the oil-replacement interval.

BK02837 (E34S M5): Oil change carried out recently; we will proceed as planned. First, an Eiffel-trip in September in adherence to Anri’s recommendation not to push per (this was not the intention anyways). Sump gasket replacement somewhere next winter, at the same time the bearing-shells will be replaced preventively. After that, oil change to either Mobil1 EL 10W60 or Motul Competition 300V 15W50.

Non ///M-cars
3152643 (E32 735i): Oil change next week; ca 6k km on the current oil (Castrol TWS SF/CJ grade). Oil change to Mobil1 Peak Life 5W50 (pilot)

GV44730 (E39 530i Touring): Oil change next week; ca 14k km on the current oil (Mobil1 NL 0W40). GV44730 will remain on a once per annum (max 15k km replacement interval with LL01-spec oil because it is a daily car).​



[10:] In all cases, a sample of the drained oil will be submitted to Blackstone for analysis. The outcome of those will be shared here for further discussion.
 
#171 · (Edited)
Yesterday, we changed the oil on the E28S M5 and the E32 735i. It was intended to do the same for the E39/2 530i Touring, but we had to postpone that because of lack of time.

1985 E28S M5
We first started with the E28S M5. It has 5228km on the oil that was run for about three years. The recent UOA of BK02837 proves that duration of the service life is less of a concern that the number of miles, but three years and little over 5000km is a nice compromise for a fully synthetic engine-oi. Off course we took a sample for Used Oil Analysis that will be send to Blackstone somewhere around the end of August combined with two or three more samples, one of which certainly for GD55450 (1992 E34S M5). The drained oil from 1018231 was extremely clean. The oil filter showed no traces of metal or sediments, which is a good prospect. Because its datasheet proved that the specifications have not been changed, Mobil1’s excellent Extended Life 10W60 was put to use again.



1988 E32 735i
The E32 735i is a different case. It was my father’s daily car between 1998 and 2004. In between, the cylinder head was replaced with a factory new unit in 2002 following an overheating-event that warped the head beyond repair. It has been stored since the begin of 2005 only to be used for a few occasions in between. For me, it was therefore interesting to know the condition of the oil and how long it has been run. I checked its service history from which I can tall that the last documented oil-change dates back to September 2002 at 170074km. By the end of 2004, the little M30 added another 16000km, mostly long-distance trips through Europe. The odo now shows 189866km, which equates to a service life of 19798km.

Off course, this is too long……. My father like many people from his generation (1945) has the habit to build his opinion onto assumptions without naming the facts. To reverse that attitude, I have always been open with sharing information……and after a while, he picks up the facts….. Long story short; he does care about maintenance, but until recently when I started discussing UOA results, also not in oil changes shorter than the inspection intervals.

Comparison
The nice thing is that one can compare and learn. For the UOA, this gives me the opportunity to send in a sample of the original Castrol Formula SAE RS 10W60 according to the 2000 datasheet. Having said that, I must have a litre of virgin-oil stashed somewhere, but does it make sense to submit that for analysis? I can only think of one reason, namely testing the engine oil that was applied on BK02837 between 2000 and 2002 that according to its datasheet should have ample ZDDP for S38 applications.

Please note that I have not mentioned the M88/3 here because its smaller cam-lobes will impose more pressure onto the oil-film in the cam-lobe interface. However, since the M88/3 does not have a catalytic converter I don’t have to worry about that part whilst still benefiting maximally from Mobil1’s EL 10W60 higher amount of ZDDP.

Oil Filter enclosure
The oil-filter enclosure may be seen as a footprint of the appearance of the engines internals and what’s happening inside. Oil changes are therefore an excellent opportunity to assess the engine’s condition just by examining the coloration of the oil-filter enclosure itself and the presence or absence of contamination.



The picture above shows the internals of the oil-filter housing of 1018231 after 5228km on the last oil fill. As can be seen, the alloy has a light yellow/gold varnish appearance and no insoluble is visible at all. This is a perfect example of an engine, which internals are still very clean.



The oil-filter house of BK02837 does not have that nice yellow/gold varnish and the traces of oil look dark, which is not necessarily bad at all because this might be the result of the oil’s detergents doing their work. The fast darkening is a known behaviour of TWS, which is not really of concern as long as the TBN far from the point where it becomes abrasive (TBN<1).



The nice thing of the sample taken from 3152643 is that the oil drained from it is a time-warp back in history when TWS was still listed on the BMW special oil list, but the insoluble that is visible on the internals of the oil-filter house prove that with almost 20000km, the oil-service life is way too long. Yes, this had its reasons, amongst others its decommissioning in early in 2005. It took me some time to consider its replacement because an M30 doesn’t really need an engine oil with a high HTHS, but one cannot reduce the viscosity without considering the effects. In the end we compromised a little by gradually reducing the viscosity whilst minimizing the potential effects onto the gaskets and seals which requires an group IV base-oil (SHC). Because of the excellent experiences obtained with Mobil1 on a S14/M88/S38 applications, we decided for the successor of Mobil1 Rally Formula 5W50 that as originally factory approved for the S14B25. This will also give valuable intel for considering application for the catalyst versions of the S14/S38 that may benefit from its slightly lower content of ZDDP compared to Mobil1 EL 10W60
 
#172 ·
Hi raymond,
I am not sure about the Euro 735, but most of the M30 cars here had no oil cooler. Since the S38 always comes with a cooler, it always comes with a fair amount of dirty oil, every oil change. Might that not be an important factor of the residual colors and lab results involved?

I know that I'm always disappointed, seeing less than sparkly clean oil, in my S38, ten miles after an oil change...

I apologize if I missed something, in the many pages of this thread; you have obviously taken your tribology much further in depth than I.
 
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#173 ·
Chris - I recommend taking the oil cooler off and giving it a through clean out and then refitting + oil change.

I suspect doing the above once every ten (or so) oil changes is a big contributor to reducing contamination of new oil.... and, the opil cooler can be a trap for crud / sludge as its feed lines are rarely (never?) open during oil drain from sump as it's temperature controlled.
 
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#175 ·
it depends upon your working environment - you could probably flush in situ if you have a ramp / easy access underneath.

I had mine cleaned out whilst replacing a faulty (brand new) water radiator that had started to "weap" at the side, so, it was just a little extra work whilst doing that. we also changed all hoses (ÂŁ620 + VAT worth of rubber from BMW)
 
#177 ·
Nice work Eero and thanks for picture... speaking of which, your oil radiator is very clean on the outside compared to mine which was full of dead insects!

I can't remember the oil route, other than the flow of oil to the oil radiator is controlled by a thermostat which is (IIRC) underneath the oil filter in the oil filter canister.
 
#178 ·
@eERO
@1day

You guys all think like tipical BMW Owners !!!! :nerd fix the existing one clean spent tons of time and at the end very minimal improvement down to almost none

I think like a Mercedes owner change parts with Brand New.

You will spent $50 worth in gas/diesel try to clean a sludge that has been clocked in for over 15years inside the little cooler veins...stones inside the cooling fins....

My cost of Brand New Oil cooler is about ~450 more or less.

Come on BMW E34 M5 owners you can't be thaaaat cheap!

Dont hate too much but the bitter truth about BMW M owner/s !

Just buy Brand New oil cooler, its not $1,500 or 2,000.

:wink
 
#180 ·
@eERO
@1day

You guys all think like tipical BMW Owners !!!! :nerd fix the existing one clean spent tons of time and at the end very minimal improvement down to almost none
Anri - I think like a Yorkshire man, ie, I dont spend money replacing items that don't need to be replaced, they just need a clean out to allow them to function correctly.

I prefer to spend my $450 on new parts that do need replacement,

ie, when my oil cooler was cleaned out, it was because we had the front end of the car in bits to replace other items

- new hoses ($1150 for rubber hoses, irrespective of what they looked like)

- $500 for new water radiator

- $2500 for new front shock absorbers, top mounts and springs

so, the invoice for that piece of "preventative" work was in the region of $5000... this is enough... it is too easy to waste money replacing items that do not need replacement.
 
#179 ·
Raymond,

Dont weist your money on testing a virgin sample thru BlackStone...
On the earlier 10W-60RS/TWS Formula if you have one left from early 2000..

Damage is their and done by previous owner/s not during your ownership, period.

Save your money on doing 2 more blackstone samples on the E34 M5 using Diesel oil to see how the metals will show, either stay the same or reduce.

Important Note
Bear in mind that if you do early oil changes the Metals will be reduces right away! That does not mean that the problem will be waved on the repair agenda!

That is why you have to do several oil tests at the chosen lower miles oil intervals. if you do only one test at say The New Chosen oil change intervals it will give you wrong information and this change the direction.

In my opinion you have to do 3 lab test to see the metals are they consistent or not...



M30 looks very clean. I see no point of using Synthetic oil.
15W-40 diesel oil will work Best for the M30 3k miles oil change and this engine will last 1milion miles. What Mercedes engine........:grin

Regards
Anri
 
#193 ·
Damage is their and done by previous owner/s not during your ownership, period.
During my holidays, I gave this some thought and I think I need to share some additional info.

My car was originally delivered to a BMW dealer in Pontresina (Switzerland), a village close to St Moritz. This was in March/April 1990 or so. It was then passed on to a BMW sub-dealer in Samnaun-dorf, also in Switzerland in June 1990. He kept it as a demonstrator car until June 1994 by when it was first registered to the first official owner in Samnaun-Laret.

I checked the service-book for maintenance records and placed them in chronological sequence. After reviewing the data, I can tell that there are no records of oil-services between the post-delivery inspection at 2922km on the 13th of August 1990 and its first registry on 26th of June 1994 at 35654km. Given the fact that she was in the hands of (back then) an official sub-dealer, it is unlikely that oil-services haven’t been carried out in between these two dates, but lack of documentation tells otherwise.

After a year and 11094km, the first owner had an inspection II carried out by an official BMW dealer in Landeck, Austria. The subsequent maintenance history shows that oil services and inspections were carried out annually, but with extended intervals. One log in the service book is compelling. It shows that in July 1995 at 57289km, an annual inspection was carried out. Normally this is without an oil-change…. But who knows. After 1996, a few more oil-changes were carried out before I took over ownership, the second last oil-change was carried out without changing the oil filter.

So I think you are right that the damage occurred prior to my ownership. In addition, conditions in the Alps are relatively harsh. The Samnaun villages are remotely located at an altitude above 1800mtrs with only two narrow and steep roads for connection to the outside world. Now BK02837 hasn’t been used in the Winter (fact), she was used partially for summer daily transportation, but the first owner preferred his smaller and more agile VW Golf VR6 Synchro on the mounting roads, hence why he put it on sale in late 1998.
 
#184 ·
Yeah, I ALMOST bought a case of Joe Gibbs 15/50 synthetic group 5 last week, high ZDDP. I haven't contacted RedLine for their ZDDP on their 10/60 group 5 I use. But I admit that, working on everyone else's cars all day, every day, my own oil changes likely go longer than they should. At least all my drives are long highway drives, no 2-mile commutes.

My oil gets dirty instantly though, which I attribute to a quart left in the cooler every time. The oil likely goes 7500 miles every change, maybe every 2-3 months. I'd change it every 5k miles, but I drive 100 miles a day, and end up procrastinating. I have done a cheap flush or two, over the four years I've owned it: Change filter, then drain sump. Put in 6+ quarts of cheap oil, drive ten miles, then come back and change filter and oil again, using the $12 a quart stuff.

It occurs to me that BMW really should have made the cooler drain when the sump drained...... never mind me, I'm up for another oil change tomorrow.... Sorry, I have not sent my own oil to Blackstone, though I have their bottle in my toolbox, waiting....

I really love the very serious tribologists on this thread. I'm an oil whore, use whatever top-of-the-line stuff I can find: RedLine, LiquiMoly, Joe Gibbs, hell, I've even used TWS, 'til I found they'd bastardized it. But hey, if someone gives me a case of TWS, it'll be in my engine tomorrow. ;)
 
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#185 · (Edited)
But hey, if someone gives me a case of TWS, it'll be in my engine tomorrow. ;)
TWS with half a bottle (8 oz i think) of redline engine break in additive (high zddp content) gave me great zinc phosphate numbers and really good used oil analysis results, so don't knock it. :deal:
 
#186 ·
I'm not knocking it at all, my friend! Those who buy and use TWS regularly, and PARTICULARLY those who use it with an excellent additive, are marvelously committed to the well being of their engines, and those people deserve the highest praise. It's a top-of-the line oil, all by itself. I've used it many times, and at work insist on it in all newer M cars where it is specified. (And it's a really good weight, for our older engines, too!)

You won't hear me condemning dedicated oil guys for using and proclaiming their favorites......well, okay, unless they go to Jiffy Lube and buy Kendall generic stuff, and let a kid torque the sump bolt to 110 pounds with a 1/2" drive gun..... ;););)
 
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#187 · (Edited)
Raymond,

Hear is what I want to share.
I have dragged your M88/3 next to mine.

The lab is S38-B36 fully rebuild inside of E30M3.

Oil I have used is Mineral Shell Rotella T 15W-40 mainly for Diesel but suites for gas engine as well.

(Note) This fully rebuild S38 is inside E30 M3 has DogLeg Box 1:1 with factory 4.10 188mm differential.
What I don't like about it is because keep the rpm too hi and that is not my preference when the engine is brand new.
On the freeway at 4000 rpm the speed is around 120km/h a bit too hi of an engine piston speed right off a complete rebuild.

The only benefit I see over this gearing is that the engine uses absolute no effort from off the line even throughout the gears because,
1. From short gearing
2. Chassis Weigh is about 1000pounds lighter than E34M5 and that makes the engine less to work/load.

Due to this fast piston speed cause by the gearing will cause the engine to break in much faster.

During this 700miles maximum rpm's were used is 4500rpm with tendency to increase after 1000k miles.

This oil lab has 700miles from 1st oil change.
We can see the massive and very aggressive metals found in the test
NOTE: ( I am bit surpcised to see these number that hi but I have never done oil lab test from brand New engine with 700miles)

My Personal Plan is up to 5000k miles= aka 7500km to have every 1000k miles oil change because I want to see these Metal Particles washed out from the engine.

I am looking at your M88/3.
How many oil changes you had since the rebuild ?
If I am not mistaken you have 2 oil changes.
You had 1st oil using Mineral and then you moved to TWS Castrol as shown in your lab test.

On your Second oil change you drove 6100km with the TWS.

My point earlier in my replies proves the Important of shorter oil changes regardless of an engine is rebuild or not.

On my fully rebuild S38-B36 engine I will continue to use Shell Rotella T for Diesel and gas engines until I see the Metal numbers down and wash off. As we can see from these facts its a waist of money to use such an expensive oil for break in period and also it will clean the system much faster with no metal inside the engine parts.

Additives:
The Shell Rotella T Diesel has about ~1150-1200PPM Zink, I have dropped another 300ppm using RedLine Zink additive so its shows almost 1600PPM ! but I feel comfortable with that number from Brand New engine.

As we can see their is abosolute no point of using synthetic oil on your dad's M30 E32 735i. This oil is absolute enough for the M30 need

Hope this will clear and make some clearance and recap of several concepts I have from these oil labs, choice of oils used, track day etc....

1. The importance of shorter oil changes for you.
(In US everybody perms oil changes at 3000k miles aka 4500km.)
2. Oil of use (will discuss that in next post reply)

When my customer drives another 1000k miles I am very eager to see the Second Oil lab test Numbers.

We will have super tight information regarding engine ware metals from fully rebuild.
We are aware that every engine wares differently than other but the most important is not to Micromanage each engine its the General Picture and concept to follow.

Cheers.
Anri
 

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#190 · (Edited)
I am looking at your M88/3.
How many oil changes you had since the rebuild ?
If I am not mistaken you have 2 oil changes.
You had 1st oil using Mineral and then you moved to TWS Castrol as shown in your lab test.
The oil change log of M88/3 engine with s/n 42243748 is as follows

zero (0) km: First fill after rebuild with Eurol special multigrade 15W40 which is a mineral oil suited for older engines and running-in purposes
738 km: First oil change after rebuild.Oil Brand & Type not changed. No UOA has been performed
2113 km: Second Oil Change after rebuild. Oil changed to Castrol TWS Motorsport (SF/CJ grade). No UOA was performed
8223 km: Third Oil Change after rebuild. Oil changed to Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 because of its superior anti-wear package. UOA shared in post #9
13462 km: Fourth Oil Change after rebuild. Oil Brand & Type not changed. UOA results pending.


On your Second oil change you drove 6100km with the TWS.
Actually 6109km on the third oil change, in accordance with the break in scheme from Dick Hoekendijk when he rebuild his S38B38 engine from his track-prepared velvet E34 M5 (a.k.a fat-lady).

My point earlier in my replies proves the Important of shorter oil changes regardless of an engine is rebuild or not.
True, that is why we are reducing the oil change interval for M88/S38 to 6000 km max.

On my fully rebuild S38-B36 engine I will continue to use Shell Rotella T for Diesel and gas engines until I see the Metal numbers down and wash off. As we can see from these facts its a waist of money to use such an expensive oil for break in period and also it will clean the system much faster with no metal inside the engine parts.
Agreed; we now know that the S38/M88 break-in period lasts for much longer then the initial 5000km !


Additives:
The Shell Rotella T Diesel has about ~1150-1200PPM Zink, I have dropped another 300ppm using RedLine Zink additive so its shows almost 1600PPM ! but I feel comfortable with that number from Brand New engine.
This oil is not available in Europe. Besides that, my experiences with continental Shell lubricants haven't been that positive.

As we can see their is abosolute no point of using synthetic oil on your dad's M30 E32 735i. This oil is absolute enough for the M30 need
Agreed, but when an engine has been run on Synthetic's, returning to mineral imposes a risk to seals and gaskets.

We will have super tight information regarding engine ware metals from fully rebuild.
We are aware that every engine wares differently than other but the most important is not to Micromanage each engine its the General Picture and concept to follow.
Agreed.
 
#188 · (Edited)
M54 content

Raymond,

Let me be the first from both of us to do M54 Lab Test.

Oil lab is from Wife's X5 M54 3.0. I am glad it runs like a champion.
We have original 130k miles.

I am a bit shocked !

As we can see the LEAD is '0' (Zero) :eek
First when I sow this I said to myself this is an Error from BlackStone.
After my call to the rep he said its not an Error !!!
That put a big smile on my face and he even mentioned that this engine is super healthy!

The oil i have used from about 1 year is again Shell Rottela T 15W-40.
As we can see form the lab test its all good and the engine oil choice will be this for ever on this X5.

Iron is 5 and I think its more coming front he Vanos because I can hear a bit of the rattle snake between 2200-2800rpm's and I think most metals are coming from there.NOTE(a chap had massive metal ware on E39 M5 and they tought its from the bearing but it was the vanos rattle after repair the metal drop a lot!)
So on these engines the Metal should be considered as well front he Doube Vanos. On the S38 we dont have that problem...so the numbers are coming from mainly the Piston Ring.

Alu is 2, very minimal Piston Side skirt ware being at that low number that is nothing...

Over all I am very happy to see these numbers.

Being a bit lazy and neglected to the M54 in therms my rule oil change at 3000k miles I stretched it to 4000k some times 5000k.....
Our X5 does not see more than 4500rpms and also I wanted to test if I can use the entire TBN at 4000k miles.
Looks like on the X5 will be driven 4000-5000k miles with Shell Diesel Rottela T.

In general the X5 M54 oil change intervals were Very Hi as we know.
I have absolute no Oil Change History on this X5 from previous owner.

Raymond its your turn to post Lab Test on your M54 engine to compare.

Cheers
Anri
 

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#189 · (Edited)
I am a bit shocked !

As we can see the LEAD is '0' (Zero) :eek
First when I sow this I said to myself this is an Error from BlackStone.
After my call to the rep he said it’s not an Error !!!
That put a big smile on my face and he even mentioned that this engine is super healthy!

Raymond it’s your turn to post Lab Test on your M54 engine to compare.
Thanks Anri, but I am not surprized. :grin

Please take a look at the lab-result in post #111.

It also shows that lead is zero, which surprized me because during this oil-run, the engine overheated because of a collapsed bleeder screw (the only plastic part in the cooling system that wasn't replaced; engine oil was Castrol TWS !

An older UOA (post #49)of my M54 dates back to 2013, also on Castrol TWS. The amount of lead was one, which also is low. Might this be related to the broken PCV system that was replaced during this run?

A third sample of my M54, but then on (Porsche approved) Mobil1 New Life 0W40 is pending; the sample has been taken, but we are collecting a few samples (including my M88/3 and a friends S38B36) to combine shipping. I expect to share the results around September.
 
#191 · (Edited)
Raymond,

I now remember when you had an issue with the plastic screw.

Yea I see the UOA from your M54, looks good and yea you have Zero
Lead too. I have totally missed your post with UOA from the M54

We know that the break in period last longer than 5000km
But the Initial Metal particles are released front the New engine parts up to 5000ish km.
After the 5000km the Metals drop dramatically.
We can see your M88/3 at 6109km the metals are slowly settling down.

I can't wait to see a second UOA from the rebuild engine.

I will post it asap.

Regards
Anri
 
#194 ·
Raymond,

The car being a demo car is not the best.
When worked at the BMW dealer back in the days,
I know how Demo Cars were treated.
Who ever drove the car drove it like it stole it.

My First E28M5 I found after I purchased it that was a demo car.

Usually not a big deal choice, but you always expect Demo cars
driven hard and less attention to maintenance.

The Demo cars are usually Sold by the Dealers for cheepers and that is for a reason.

Also in US if a car is a Demo car it must be in the vin# history.

Regards
Anri
 
#195 · (Edited)


Here virgin sample


Data sheet http://lubeoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Kendall-Super-D-XA-ti-10-20-15-40.pdf

Molybdenum is much lower than before. Zink, boron and phosphorus is higher than in virgin sample. Copper 0.

Molybdenum is from bearings? Boron is also against wear? Before this fill is made RVS treatment, so probably there is still RVS left. Probably that is how RVS works, it leaves protection layer.

Any comments?
 
#196 ·
OK oil fans, here are two more data points for you. These are from "The Oil Lab" in the UK.

Starting with my M5, S38B38, taken after about 2500 hard miles. It's a new car to me, with slightly higher oil consumption than my previous M5 so I was interested to see what is going on, not least because history on the car is very limited. Based on previous analyses on this thread then the iron is worth monitoring - I shall get a test done every year I think.

For ZDDP fans, this is out first data point on Fuchs Titan Pro R 15w50 - which seems somewhat popular amongst M5 owners. To my eye ZDDP seems OK.


<table dir="LTR" border="1" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="7" width="272"><tbody><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" colSpan="3"> PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Viscosity @ 40°C

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">cSt

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">124.3

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Water Content

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">%wt

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0.0

</td></tr><tr><td height="13" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Total Insoluble Matter

</td><td height="13" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">%

</td><td height="13" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0.5

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Total Base No

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">mgKOH/g

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">n/a



</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Fuel Detected

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">%

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">n/a



</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Fuel Dilution

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">>135c

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">n/a



</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" colSpan="3">SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS
</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Iron

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">29

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Chromium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">1

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Aluminium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">6

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Molybdenum

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">9

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Copper

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">8

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Lead

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">6

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Tin

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Nickel

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Silicon

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">29

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Sodium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">7

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Boron

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">64

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Vanadium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Calcium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">2703

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Phosphorus

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">941

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Zinc

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">1163

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Magnesium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">29

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Barium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">3

</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
#197 ·
And now the S50B32 BMW Z3M Coupe. I know the history of this car but I thought it high time I did an analysis. The oil is Fuchs Tital Pro S 5w40 about 1000 miles old. Again, iron seems slightly high and is worth monitoring. Note the lower ZDDP result than the previous post - but I understand this is less crucial on the S50.


<table dir="LTR" border="1" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="7" width="272"><tbody><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" colSpan="3"> PHYSICAL PROPERTIES
</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Viscosity @ 40°C

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">cSt

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">70.7

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Water Content

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">%wt

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0.0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Total InsolubleMatter

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">%

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0.2

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Total Base No

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">mgKOH/g

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">n/a



</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Fuel Detected

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">%

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">n/a



</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Fuel Dilution

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">>135c

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">n/a



</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" colSpan="3">SPECTROCHEMICAL ANALYSIS
</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Iron

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">10

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Chromium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Aluminium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">3

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Molybdenum

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">15

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Copper

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">5

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Lead

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">2

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Tin

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">1

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Nickel

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Silicon

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">18

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Sodium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">5

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Boron

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">521

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Vanadium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Calcium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">2709

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Phosphorus

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">900

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Zinc

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">1060

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Magnesium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">16

</td></tr><tr><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">Barium

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">ppm

</td><td height="6" vAlign="TOP" width="33%">0

</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
#198 ·
Nasty cam wear

This is on my M60B30 which was starting to burn a lot of oil (1 liter every 400kms)

The M60 had the nikasil cracks at the top of the bore in cylinder 7 (184k km) and I suspect the blow by was rapidly diluting and contaminating the oil.

Oil changes every 5,000km with this engine but I switched from Castrol 10W-60 to Shell Helix 15W-40 and 3k km oil changes when it started burning considerable amounts of oil

I didn't get to inspect the cam lobes until now (2.5 years and 30k kms ownership) so I don't know how much of this cam wear lobe was already there but the engine always had valve train noise and clatter.

M60B40 going in this week , the cams on this engine show no wear or scuffs.
 

Attachments

#200 · (Edited)
Update

Hi,

Very good news I am seeing hear.

My fully rebuild 3.6l engine shows very good news.

The engine break in period the metals drop by 50% in the Second oil change at total of 1400miles. Each oil change the engine has covered 700miles.
Inside my the lab page you can see on the Right the First oil change and
on the left is the Second oil change.

The next oil change will be after another 700-1000miles.

This record and test proves the following facts:
After compete engine rebuild the proper oil changes must be in my opinion no more than 500-700miles per oil change in order to wash off the initial metals/shavings.
Oil I used is 15W-40 for diesel and gasoline engine with increase zink.
also the the massive detergents are doing great work with washing the metals.

Next to mine is Raymond's M88/3 fully rebuild, the numbers of the test shows it could have earlier oil changes to prevent the metal to float inside the oil at 7500km-5000k miles.

On this Engine I never ever used any Silicone !!! and this shows the number very low.

I will continue to test and report back.

Cheers.
Anri
 

Attachments

#201 ·
Hi Anri,

That is good news. :smile

As for my M88/3; I have a second UOA that also shows a significant reduction in wear-elements. However I have yet to find the time to write a contribution in this thread, also because Blackstone performed three other tests simultaneously.

Just be patient.
 
#202 ·
I am patient Ray.
You are the only one I know with complete S38/M88 from ground up rebuild the same as my complete rebuild 3.6l who started to do Oil Lab test to get some New Born engine data ware.
This 3.6 I put together it does rev like a motorcycle engine.

I put a lot of sweat in this complete 3.6 complete rebuild.
the outcome result is amazing, often I wish to have enthusiast like you to meet and have fun and visit each others garage to wrench on a cup of Jameson Whiskey and have tech discussion.
Oh well a key board is the solution I assume, isn't it?

Hurry up and post the info so we can discus some facts.
This E34M5 section is getting slow in post replied by minutes... not days,
I am afraid when another year pass or so...their will be several people hear and that is it...

I see how you are blending with another BMW model community, the shark era. A lot more people to meet with the Shark Era versus The Last hand build BMW M car the E34M5...
You are an owner of E28M5 sure you are fan of the Shark Era and this is a lot more fun to be around versus Handful E34M5 owners.
David is the only one person I know who has the largest E34M5 community...

I am waiting and waiting :smile

Regards
Anri
 
#203 · (Edited)
I am afraid when another year pass or so...their will be several people hear and that is it...

Anri
True , I've also been noticing the number of posts dropping as E34 owners migrate to E39s , E60s and F10s over the last 2 years

2 years ago the E39 forum had the most views , now it's the E60 forum.

A function of the cars age I guess , it's a lot less headaches owning a 5 or 10 year old M5 than a 25 year old M5 !

The E28 M5 forum is very quiet but a low number of cars built
 

Attachments

#208 · (Edited)
Hi Anri et al,

First of all, a small detour from the topic because Anri’s observation that the activity on the E34 and E28 groups are declining. I see that as well, but I think it should be a collaborative effort to return that trend. Yes, the facebook groups are increasing in popularity, but IMHO that is a different proposition and cannot be compared with a forum like this, even when adding media files is so much more intuitive.

I must admit that I have some responsibility in that as well, but bear in mind that it can never be however a single person who should pull or push a forum to keep it alive. This should be a collaborative effort of all members. I therefore propose to take this discussion offline by creating a separate thread to discuss what we can do to keep the E28S and E34S forums alive tomorrow.

Now back on topic. Between June and September, I performed five oil changes to four of my cars and a friend’s car (GD55450), of which I have submitted a sample to Blackstone for analysis. The report from my personal E34S M5 was already shared with you around the begin of July. The other samples were sent to Blackstone around halve September when we changed the oil on GD55450.

Note: I used to send samples by DHL or equivalent in the black sample kit canister from Blackstone. I observed that when doing so, it took three weeks before Blackstone laboratories submitted their reports back to me. In September, I sent four samples simultaneously in a carton box. This time, it took Blackstone two weeks to report back.

I then compared the track-tracing log that I kept of all shipments to Blackstone. The single shipments, thus unboxed where three weeks in transit, whilst the last collected shipment in a carton box was two weeks in transit. In all cases, the track tracing reported that the package arrived in the USA after about one week. However, the single shipments showed no activity in the second week of their transit-time until seven days after arriving in the USA when activity reappeared. This delay was not visible for the collected shipment in the carton box. I can’t prove it, but I suspect that the US customs keeps shipments that appear to be abnormal in quarantine for about a week before releasing them to local transporters for final delivery. Please note that this is not a complaint, but a mere observation. Anyhow, the four samples that were analysed by Blackstone in September were from (1) my E28S M5 (1018231), (2) my E32 735i (3152463), (3) my daily E39 530i touring (GV44730) and (4) a friends E34S M5 (GD55450).

GD55450: Report number H02541 is the first report for this car and the second with Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 (note #1).



The first report with this oil (F61746) showed a slight increase of the wear compared to the last report with Castrol Edge Professional TWS (F13135). Report H02451 breaks this trend; all metals are lower than what has reported before. Compared to the cars averages, every wear-related element still is in the green zone, which is remarkable for a car that has almost 310000km on the odo.



The sudden increase in metal-wear reported in F61746 also coincided with a change of oil type & brand; combined with the fact that the third report marked a sharp decrease in metal-wear raises the question if a change of oil brand/type can result in a temporary increase of wear-related elements?

In any case, we (the owner and myself) are quite content with this report because it indicates that no major breakdowns have to be expected in the near future. We will continue monitoring with a reduced oil-exchange interval of around 6000km.

1018231: The second report for 1018231 (H02542) also marks a change from Castrol TWS Motorsport to Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 (note #1). This is the fourth oil change since the rebuild, but the second one that has been tested.



The first oil fil was with Eurol Special Multigrade 15W40 mineral running in oil with subsequent oil changes at 738km (Eurol Special Multigrade 15W40), 2113km (Castrol TWS Motorsport), 8223km (Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60) and 13462km (Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60). Unfortunately, I did not submit a sample of any of the two first oil changes, but the second report of the fourth oil change shows a significant reduction in metal wear.



Blackstone also reported an increase in Potassium, which like Sodium is a trace-element used in coolant. Since I keep a detailed and accurate logbook, I know only 100 millilitres of coolant was added during this oil-life and this was only a top up for a non-measurable difference between the actual level and the cold-level marking on the reservoir. Blackstone confirms that this is very low, but their tests are also fairly sensitive. But since original M88/3 cylinder heads were NLA I was forced to have the cracks in the original head to be repaired. Whilst this was done with the best craftsmanship and process was involved, it cannot be ruled out that a slight leak will occur, but this must then also be related to an increase in Sodium, which is not the case. So what does cause Potassium? The next UOA will be interesting; we expect a further reduction of wear-related elements in the oil, also because the oil type/brand was not changed, which could answer the question that I raised with GD55450.

The other two reports will follow ASAP, but my mind has too much to handle right now so that will take a few days.

Notes:
1: Mobil1 Extended Life 10W60 has been renamed to Mobil1 Motorsport 10W60 in 2015.
 
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