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Need Advice: Detonation / Pinging on B36

11K views 59 replies 15 participants last post by  ianwood 
#1 ·
I have a B36 motor recently transplanted into an E24. The motor is in good shape and low miles. I recently drove the car across the US from DC to LA. The engine runs beautifully and pulls well in the low winter temps but at higher LA temps (e.g. 75 - 80F or higher), I get occasional pinging at low RPM and high load after the engine gets heat soaked in local traffic. Coolant temps never rise past the center line though. LA only offers 91 octane (except for a few stations offering 100 octane at $10 a gallon!). Do I need a different less aggressive tune to run on 91 pump gas or should the stock tune work? The ECU is from the UK and should be stock. Oh, and the car doesn't yet have an intake flap controller (if that matters).

Here's a quick video of the motor: S38B36 E24 Transplant - YouTube

I wonder if the position of the cold air intake is contributing to the problem. Any thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.
 
#2 · (Edited)
There are a couple of things there... the UK doesn't have that kind of fuel (I'm aware that the ratings are not transparent between EU and US, but I'm certain that 91 US is less than 95 UK/EU), and I'm not sure it's available in Europe. I'd imagine some changes were made to the map flashed in the ECU for US applications.

Pulling air from inside the engine bay isn't the best for performance, but is should be OK so long as the temp sensor is picking up the static air temperature of the air going in. I couldn't see on the video where the intake temperature sensor was located.
 
#3 ·
Was it pinging when you were in the DC ?

Also make sure you open the DME and check if anybody install a chip...(make sure you have done that because you may brake something) If yes that is probably the reason because if who ever owned the engine on the car before you installed a chip that was programed for EURO 98Octane gas and you put 91octaneUS=95octane Euro that is quite difference.

I sow the video the car idle good. I am this >< much to the same swap on my daily E24 M6..

I am in LA/Valley area and if you would like sent me PM your contact come over and I will be happy to find the problem for you...


Anri


I have a B36 motor recently transplanted into an E24. The motor is in good shape and low miles. I recently drove the car across the US from DC to LA. The engine runs beautifully and pulls well in the low winter temps but at higher LA temps (e.g. 75 - 80F or higher), I get occasional pinging at low RPM and high load after the engine gets heat soaked in local traffic. Coolant temps never rise past the center line though. LA only offers 91 octane (except for a few stations offering 100 octane at $10 a gallon!). Do I need a different less aggressive tune to run on 91 pump gas or should the stock tune work? The ECU is from the UK and should be stock. Oh, and the car doesn't yet have an intake flap controller (if that matters).

Here's a quick video of the motor: S38B36 E24 Transplant - YouTube

I wonder if the position of the cold air intake is contributing to the problem. Any thoughts/input would be greatly appreciated.
 
#4 ·
It didn't ping in DC as far as I know but the ambient temps were much lower and I drove with the windows up so probably didn't hear it if it was pinging. Also, there is 93 octane in DC/VA. I will check to see what chip is in there. If it's stock, do I need to change it or should I be looking elsewhere? Is there a difference between the US and the UK ECU? Is there a California version that is suited to 91 pump gas? Appreciate the feedback.

Air temp sensor is mounted right underneath the intake so it should be registering intake air temps accurately.
 
#5 · (Edited)
ECU is all the same for US and EU

One thing is for sure California 91 Octane gas is not as NY 91 or so.. Its crappy 91 octane.

Swap the stock chip and see if does ping..

Good luck
Anri
 
#9 ·
ETK gives the same partnumbers but in the old data I found different codings (calibrations) are present. And for ECE and US they are different. Check the silver/gray sticker on one of the sides of the DME to check which version you have. The attachment might be older so newer/other ones might be present.

Allthough B36 engines in US and ECE have a catalic converter some error codes are needed for emissions. As far as I know the US cars did have the check engine light and the ECE didn't have it (from factory).

ianwood should have 881E on his DME. To be sure on this I need both bin files from a ECE (already have) and one from an US 881E ECU!

Regards,
Tom
 

Attachments

#8 ·
i'd say this is a fact of life in california. I have a d'sylvia chip tuned for california 91 octane. It's still a better tune than stock, but not as aggressive from an ignition timing standpoint as other aftermarket chips. I also try to mix in some better fuel, in my area there is a gas station that sells vp racing fuel in 94, 96 and 100 octanes (all unleaded), and when the weather is hot i try to either mix or run something so i'm close to 94 octane. Makes a world of difference in the way the car runs, and no pinging.

In the 'winter' our fuel is oxygenated and or has alcohol in it which makes it a bit worse on our warmer winter days.
 
#11 ·
Maybe the fan connector is wrong.

I saw it in the video
Normally, on the inlet side is the hot connector (top) and on the outlet side of the cold connector (bottom).
This gives the cylinder head only the hot water, let alone at low speeds in town.

greetings Gosch, my first post
 
#14 ·
Couple of things you could check

1. Fuel pump - the casing on my pump split reducing the supply of gas
2. Intake Gasket - between the head and intake manifold the gasket is prone to splitting and letting extra air into the engine causing a lean condition.

Both these things have happened to me. HTH

cheers,

Dave
 
#16 ·
Hi - That is the original UK chip (by its part number sticker).

I`m pretty sure that the US calibration runs less spark advance due to the lower quality fuel available. So it is likely that even with the same hardware you would get some det on US fuel.

As identified above, a leaking intake gasket would certainly give you lean running at part load conditions whch would increase the likelyhood of engine knock.

However I think your biggest potential issue is the air filter set-up. The set-up in your picture will be drawing very hot air from the engine bay, coupled with lower grade fuel = excellent condition to promote knock.

I`m guessing your knock is worst when pulling away from a stationary / traffic situation? Very high intake air temps would be prime suspect.

The standard intake air temperature sensor, which is used by the PCM, is normally fitted in the base of the standard airbox.

If your sensor is open in the engine bay, the actual intake air temp when moving may be quite different from what the sensor is detecting.

Finally, does your filter have a smooth bellmouth in the base feeding the MAF? If not the MAF will be likely to be reading airflow incorrectly due to turbulence in the presented airflow.

Have you checked actual running air fuel ratio?

I would look to isolate the air filter from the engine bay in the first instance, perhaps consider refitting the std airbox?

I can supply the memory addresses of the relavent tables in the PCM for spark and fuel, but you really need to know what your doing if your going to play with these. Ideally you would also want to compare to the std US maps to see what differences are present as standard.

Does anyone have a standard US .bin file?
 
#19 · (Edited)
Hi - That is the original UK chip (by its part number sticker).

I`m pretty sure that the US calibration runs less spark advance due to the lower quality fuel available. So it is likely that even with the same hardware you would get some det on US fuel.

As identified above, a leaking intake gasket would certainly give you lean running at part load conditions whch would increase the likelyhood of engine knock.

However I think your biggest potential issue is the air filter set-up. The set-up in your picture will be drawing very hot air from the engine bay, coupled with lower grade fuel = excellent condition to promote knock.

I`m guessing your knock is worst when pulling away from a stationary / traffic situation? Very high intake air temps would be prime suspect.

The standard intake air temperature sensor, which is used by the PCM, is normally fitted in the base of the standard airbox.

If your sensor is open in the engine bay, the actual intake air temp when moving may be quite different from what the sensor is detecting.

Finally, does your filter have a smooth bellmouth in the base feeding the MAF? If not the MAF will be likely to be reading airflow incorrectly due to turbulence in the presented airflow.

Have you checked actual running air fuel ratio?

I would look to isolate the air filter from the engine bay in the first instance, perhaps consider refitting the std airbox?

I can supply the memory addresses of the relavent tables in the PCM for spark and fuel, but you really need to know what your doing if your going to play with these. Ideally you would also want to compare to the std US maps to see what differences are present as standard.

Does anyone have a standard US .bin file?
Standard airbox was for the S38B35 and the E24 ABS pump was moved to further forward to accommodate the larger S38B36 intake so I'll need something custom between the stock airbox location and the MAF. I am going to get on this ASAP as I think it's a big contributing factor. As for the .bin file, I would love to see the differences. But if they went through the effort of making different chips for ECE and US, then I'd guess the timing is probably a little less aggressive on the US version.

As for hacking a bin file, I am pretty technical even though I haven't "burned" an EEPROM in decades. I just did my first Megasquirt on a turbo M20 a couple months ago. Obviously .bin files are going to be less user friendly but with the right offsets and data structures identified that would be pretty cool. I am about to order another AEM unit so I can see AFRs. Just trying to figure out where to stealth install it.

Now if someone could post or PM me or SUb8 with a US bin file it would really help to see if tming calibratin is different (I think so). I wouldn't mind burning an EPROM for you and sending it to the US so you can try it out on your car. As Sub8 said, you should replace the intake temperature sensor and check the air filter.
That would be awesome. Hopefully someone has one to share. I am sure Mark D has one and I remember reading somewhere that he would even sell stock chips at cost but I can't seem to get a hold of him.

Is the engine running on / dieseling after shut down ?

Carbon build up hot spot ?
No issues. Shuts down normally. Engine is pretty young and was pretty healthy when it went in. Hoping it still is!!!
 
#17 ·
Now if someone could post or PM me or SUb8 with a US bin file it would really help to see if tming calibratin is different (I think so). I wouldn't mind burning an EPROM for you and sending it to the US so you can try it out on your car. As Sub8 said, you should replace the intake temperature sensor and check the air filter.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Los Angeles are...

Hi,

We could have forget, find and fix your pinging by now....

As I have offered on page one I am few miles away from whatever area you are in Los Aneles. My 'Play House" is located in the Valley.

I have Euro 3.6 DME and US 3.6 DME also have good MAF to swap and try and see if difference in engine operation etc.

I am working on one of our board members E34 M5 Dinan 3.9 (10.2 CR according to Dinan spec)and I tell you it does not like the heat and that car pings a lot and you know in Valley these days is about 108F zzzzz After I swaped the DME with off of the Euro 3.6 no more pinging. I can meet even on the way back to my home at Ventura blvd and Laurel Canyon at the corner there is a Caffe Bean and I can take the parts with me and with a cup of caffe we can try and see...

Almost forgot to say lets take your car to Harry H. the Dyno shop at Oxnard st. and Kester were I have done all my S38 dyno tests and we will see what's up with the AFR etc...

Why bother Tomba from the other site of the mother earth for a part we can try in 30mins or less...

Choice is yours...


Good luck
Anri












Btw. I have rear ended E34 M5 3.6 Euro with DME came off the car and never ever pinged what so ever..Any History from the engine ? How many times the cyl head was taken off and resurfaced and if yes with how much??? If you dont know and if the cyl head is off the machine shop can measure and we will compare the stock factory specifications etc... Many are the reasons for pinging...
 
#21 ·
We could have forget, find and fix your pinging by now....
I know. Too much work and not enough time. I mostly only use the car on weekends and have begrudgingly been mixing in 100 since January and neglecting it in favor of working on my jalopy E28 turbo M20.

As I have offered on page one I am few miles away from whatever area you are in Los Aneles. My 'Play House" is located in the Valley.

I have Euro 3.6 DME and US 3.6 DME also have good MAF to swap and try and see if difference in engine operation etc.

I am working on one of out board members E34 M5 Dinan 3.9 (10.2 CR according to Dinan spec)and I tell you it does not like the heat and that car pings a lot and you know know in Valley these days is about 108F zzzzz After I swap the DME with off of the Euro 3.6 no more pinging. Even I can meet on the way back to home at Ventura blvd and Laurel Canyon at the corner there is a Caffe Bean and I can take the parts with me and with a cup of caffe we can try and see...

Why bother Tomba from the other site of the mother earth for a part we can try in 30mins or less...

Choice is yours...
Sounds like an offer I can't refuse! That would be fantastic from a troubleshooting perspective! I'll PM you and we can talk details. Maybe I can even take a "snapshot" of the US chip if your OK with it and I can get a hold of a reader. Tomba, Sub8, what do I need to capture the chip to a .bin file? Obviously a reader, but what software that'll run on my Mac should I use?

Btw. I have rear ended E34 M5 3.6 Euro with DME came off the car and never ever pinged what so ever..Any History from the engine ? How many times the cyl head was taken off and resurfaced and if yes with how much??? If you dont know and if the cyl head is off the machine shop can measure and we will compare the stock factory specifications etc... Many are the reasons for pinging...
Motor had 49K miles on it when I bought it last summer and cold leak down was around 10% or so across the board. Rod bearings were done but the top end was left untouched. When running on 100/91 mix, it runs pretty well now that I've patched up the vacuum leak on 6. I've only run it a few times on 91 alone and could hear occasional pinging in the heat and so in went the 100 again. However, it still doesn't feel quite like all 300+ horses are being expressed yet. And I suspect the CAI setup is a problem and the MAF probably needs a rebuild. That and balancing the throttle bodies. Other than feeling a little down on power, it has developed a slight stumbling (uneven load) under light throttle and the idle is lumpier than it was 6 months ago which might be MAF and/or imbalanced ITBs.
 
#22 ·
Seems I can't PM you Anri as I am still need to send another 31 messages before I can send PMs. Laurel and Ventura works for me. And I'm in town for next 5 or 6 days. Let me know a couple times that work for you. You can email me on ian_wood [at] ianwood [dot] com.
 
#25 ·
I sent you PM through hear so you should have my phone#


Perfect it woks better for me too to meet at laurel canyon at the caffe bean.

These days I am trying to find an excuse not to work....It is the best climate on the world BUT there is only 1 month out of the year that is not for Human Beings outside...Dry Sauna for free hiha

Anri
 
#26 ·
Hello everyone,

I've been lurking in the shadows here and am a new poster so would first like to say thanks for the wealth of info you all share in this forum. I have a 2/90 build E34 M5 Dinan 3.9 Stroker with 145k miles here in the U.S. and it's been a fantastic DD for the last 11 Months. I am also experiencing pinging and have been down a few different paths as well. In summary, I believe as others have said, that poor fuel and lower available octane is a contributor to my issue. I live in Arizona so the high ambient temps don't help either.

Dinan built the stroker package with a complimenting tune. The previous owner stated he had the tune modified for California gas but his repair history also points to pinging. In fact at 90k he was serviced for pinging, at 99k a faulty ICV and fuel pressure regulator were replaced, then at 100k, poor compression on #4 cyl. Cause was pinging due to intake leak. Result, burned piston and a $20k rebuild. When i bought the vehicle i immediately had valves done, plugs, wires, cap/rotor, air filter, replaced all vacuum lines and balanced TBs. Recently, I've replaced coolant temp sensor, O2, checked TPS, and now rebuilt MAF. A few things i have not done include injector flow check/cleaning, Inlet temp sensor, recheck for new/undiscovered intake leaks, fuel pump and regulator and ignition coil.

I have four scenarios: (1) With the Dinan tune and the car as it sits as mentioned above i get pinging. (2) Blend a strong octane booster less pinging, (3) blend 100 octane race fuel with 91 Shell to yield at least 95 octane, I don't get any pinging and the car runs really strong. I've also gone 5 gal of straight 100 octane and results were even better. But, at $9/gal here in AZ, that's not a long-term solution. (4) swapped out the Dinan tune for a stock 3.6L chip running Shell 91 only and I also don't get any pinging in 110+ degree heat with AC running. My solution now will be scenario 4 until temps drop. I will also start snooping for intake leake. This being the cause of the earlier burned piston and the fact that I have similar symptoms scares me a bit. I also don't know if running the stock 3.6 chip in a 3.9 that needs more volume of everything is a good long term solution. I've had several people say that I may just have to live with it unless I want to keep blending fuels. Perhaps a new custom tune for our crappy gas is in order? I don't know.

Pinging for me is experienced under about 1/4 throttle load in 2nd and higher gears around 2,000 - 2,500 RPM. Above that I can go WOT but also get a very sharp metallic ping that is less than .5 sec in duration but at a much more dangerous 5,000 - 6,000 RPM range. With the lower RPM range, say a pull from 2k revs in 2nd gear, the ping will last until the revs build. The upper range is only very brief. I've adopted my driving style to avoid pinging at all cost.

Recently I started getting intermittent idle "spikes" where idle would stay at 2k RPMs after clutch engagement while decelerating. After a few seconds it would return to normal just under 1k revs. I didn't have any CELs or codes stored but figured ICV and/or MAF. As the MAF has not been touched since new, and ICV has been replaced within last 50k miles, I went the MAF route. I sent the unit to Kevin at Injection Labs in Colorado. Great resource and he stated most issues related to MAF begin when the unit is about 40 mv out of spec. I was 35 mv so not bad. I had it rebuilt anyway and installed yesterday along with my Dinan tune but as stated above, still pinging

Although this got me thinking about "what's next", I think I will stick with using my stock 3.6 chip with 91 pump grade Shell gas in the summer and will test the Dinan tune this winter when temps cool. Looking forward to hear how things go with the OP as well.

Aaron
 
#27 ·
WoW- dedication. I imagine a nicely running 3.9 is pretty special.

Its those pings at 5-6K that will break ringlands and are very bad news.

A little rattle at lower rpm's is not so bad, but again not ideal. It can also get out of hand very quickly, i.e a knocking engine tends to build more knock on the next cycle and so on. I guess you know all this allready!

If you`ve got a 3.6ltr tune in now, I assume you have the dinan chip out of the ecu?

If you can get the bin file read from the chip, we could run a compare with the std euro 3.6ltr map and see whats changed.

In the short term, my prime concern would be the AFR the engine is running. Can you get a dyno run just to check fuelling?
 
#28 ·
Sub8,

Yes this car is loads of fun. I bought it just as I was coming off lease of an '08 335i. That car was bone stock but the ///M is every bit as fast, if not more, and a lot more rewarding to drive. I don't miss the 3. I can check on my local tuner shop for dyno runs. Today however, after installing the MAF and dumping some Lucas octane booster in the tank, the car ran great with no knocking. Temps were in the 90s today. I still have the Dina tune installed at this point. If the pinging returns I will go back to stock.

Thanks!
 
#29 ·
I e-mailed and phoned the main BMW parts house to see if it is possible to order seperate EPROMs for DMEs. The man is really busy at the moment but will reply to me once he has found out.

Maybe it will be possible to just order the eprom at the BMW dealer with the right coding!
 
#31 ·
Yes, the parts manager contacted me back with no results :sad1:. He contacted some old colleagues but didn't get more info than he already knew.

I will try to get in contact with BMW pre-development with my work. Only I need some time to arrange that. An engineer from them visited our company and he's quite on age. So perhaps he know more of it. When I know something I'll reply back.
 
#32 ·
Hi Tomi,

Interesting question for you and I. Car I have is US E34 M5 3,6, if I am not mistaken production data is Sep/1990.+/- 2 months off of my memory.

When swap Euro E34 M5 3,6 DME to the same 3.6 US car the Check engine light turn on and guess what, no rev limiter ?????? You put back the Euro DME back to the euro 3,6 and stock rev limiter 7250+/- ? Also If I am not mistaken Euro 3,6 no Check engine light, right ?

Something does not make sense to me, isn't the DME/Eprom controls the rev limiter ?

The Euro DME has never been open what so ever.

Lets discover this interesting appearance.

Best Regards
Anri
 
#35 ·
Hi guys,

I took a while to get more information on this. I found an eprom in some BMW stock and thought these were orderable from BMW. They seem to be used for cars with problems. So called TSB / SI reports can be found redirecting to an eprom replacement.

A BMW calibration engineer came by at my work. I thought if someone knows more about ir he should. He only works on pre-development and series is a complete other department (we are currently out of series to...). I also directed him to the E34 M5 engine. He said that M department is again a complete other one he is working. But, he has a friend over there and he is whilling to forward my e-mail to his direction. So maybe I can get on hold on more or the US calibration eprom or more information on this.

Will be continued...
 
#36 ·
Update:

Got information back that the man at M department is willing to write a 881e EPROM for me.
He only needs the VIN and build date (year and month).

So I will forward the picture that ianwood posted and send him the data with the VIN.

Is that OK ianwood or are you not interested anymore?

BR,
Tomba
 
#37 ·
If that gets me the equivalent of a stock 881E chip, I am definitely interested! But, just to make sure I understand this correctly, the guy at the M department will burn a stock 881E chip based on VIN/build date and then you'll send it to me after you make a copy of it?
 
#38 ·
If that gets me the equivalent of a stock 881E chip, I am definitely interested!
You will get the the right chip with this!

But, just to make sure I understand this correctly, the guy at the M department will burn a stock 881E chip based on VIN/build date
Exactly

and then you'll send it to me after you make a copy of it?
I will make a copy to see what is changed (i'm interested to :)). And then I'll send it in your direction.
 
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