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Old 9th November 2005, 19:02   #11
Birds Hartge
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus
welcome abaord Kevin,

its great to see the owner(s) of one of the best tuning companies on here answering the questions.

I got one question, could the S38B36 engine benefit from those modifications and if so which ones? Have you eve modified the S38 from the E34?
Hartge used similar modifications in the H36, the S38 B36 engined M3. I owned one for quite a while, and Hartge told me that the particular car I had developed nearly 360hp when they had finished with it! Certainly felt like it...
With all of these types of engine, there was no "kit of parts" and no generally available solution. Each one was done individually, and the results were entirely subject to workmanship at the Beckingen factory. I'm sure that they could and would do the same again, and I'm sure we could replicate their work here in Uxbridge. It involves camshafts, installation of the same, and a considerable amount of work on the existing head, valves and inlet systems. Engine management would have to be remapped as a consequence. My best guess at a price would be 5k, which is a lot of dough, but there is a considerable amount of machine work and fettling to be done to better BMW M's handiwork, as you would expect!
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Old 9th November 2005, 19:48   #12
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birds Hartge
Hartge used similar modifications in the H36, the S38 B36 engined M3. I owned one for quite a while, and Hartge told me that the particular car I had developed nearly 360hp when they had finished with it! Certainly felt like it...
With all of these types of engine, there was no "kit of parts" and no generally available solution. Each one was done individually, and the results were entirely subject to workmanship at the Beckingen factory. I'm sure that they could and would do the same again, and I'm sure we could replicate their work here in Uxbridge. It involves camshafts, installation of the same, and a considerable amount of work on the existing head, valves and inlet systems. Engine management would have to be remapped as a consequence. My best guess at a price would be 5k, which is a lot of dough, but there is a considerable amount of machine work and fettling to be done to better BMW M's handiwork, as you would expect!
When you do work to a car do you dyno it after wards to show the gains?

I know alot of E30 owners are interested in the H26 conversion but want to see that proof it makes 190 bhp.
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Old 9th November 2005, 19:50   #13
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Re: Hartge M5

Welcome aboard Kevin

Why not come along to our meet on December 4th - a lot of your past, present & future customers will be there (all happy of course):

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...603#post629603

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Old 15th November 2005, 19:56   #14
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashok Arora
Welcome aboard Kevin

Why not come along to our meet on December 4th - a lot of your past, present & future customers will be there (all happy of course):

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/sho...603#post629603

Hmmmm.
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Old 17th November 2005, 21:54   #15
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrus
When you do work to a car do you dyno it after wards to show the gains?

I know alot of E30 owners are interested in the H26 conversion but want to see that proof it makes 190 bhp.
You should really be happy that Hartge made that claim under strict German legislation. Given that there are no exhaust manifolds available any more, we do a bit more work to the cylinder head to compensate. I would have no problem guaranteeing the additional 20hp. However, the car would need to be tested both before and after the conversion, as it is unlikely that cars of this vintage actually produce the original BMW spec. 170hp. I guess we must have done around 50 such conversions, without complaint (so far so good!)
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Old 7th December 2005, 12:12   #16
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birds Hartge
You should really be happy that Hartge made that claim under strict German legislation. Given that there are no exhaust manifolds available any more, we do a bit more work to the cylinder head to compensate. I would have no problem guaranteeing the additional 20hp. However, the car would need to be tested both before and after the conversion, as it is unlikely that cars of this vintage actually produce the original BMW spec. 170hp. I guess we must have done around 50 such conversions, without complaint (so far so good!)
-----------------

Hi Kevin

Along with the other members I also welcome you aboard, and it is great to have a knowledgeable person such as yourself writing here. I have a question...one that has been asked many times..
What could you safely/reliably extract from the 3,8 block on the E34 M5, as a daily driver?
I have the Schrick cams and a UNICHIP and 100 cell catalysts. I suppose extensive headwork?
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Old 7th December 2005, 16:13   #17
Birds Hartge
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahangeer
-----------------

Hi Kevin

Along with the other members I also welcome you aboard, and it is great to have a knowledgeable person such as yourself writing here. I have a question...one that has been asked many times..
What could you safely/reliably extract from the 3,8 block on the E34 M5, as a daily driver?
I have the Schrick cams and a UNICHIP and 100 cell catalysts. I suppose extensive headwork?
Regret to admit I have no answer for that one. The 3.8l was very late in BMWs development path, and only presented limited appeal for tuners, therefore nothing serious made it into the marketplace.
As with most M engines, someone has already done the fettling work to quite a high standard, so gains are relatively poor for quite a lot of effort (=cash). Best way forward would be to convert the engine management to alpha-n, using MoTec. Expensive, but you are guaranteed to get better performance in absolutely any engine configuration you may arrive at in the future. If they or their dealers have done a configuration like this before, then you will be able to tap into existing knowledge. Would be nasty if you had to fund your own development costs though.
Otherwise, a really careful set-up and remap of the existing engine management would be the only other route to get the best out of what you have. I would guess that you would only see maybe another 20hp from really slick headwork.
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Old 7th December 2005, 16:29   #18
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Re: Hartge M5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birds Hartge
Regret to admit I have no answer for that one. The 3.8l was very late in BMWs development path, and only presented limited appeal for tuners, therefore nothing serious made it into the marketplace.
As with most M engines, someone has already done the fettling work to quite a high standard, so gains are relatively poor for quite a lot of effort (=cash). Best way forward would be to convert the engine management to alpha-n, using MoTec. Expensive, but you are guaranteed to get better performance in absolutely any engine configuration you may arrive at in the future. If they or their dealers have done a configuration like this before, then you will be able to tap into existing knowledge. Would be nasty if you had to fund your own development costs though.
Otherwise, a really careful set-up and remap of the existing engine management would be the only other route to get the best out of what you have. I would guess that you would only see maybe another 20hp from really slick headwork.
---------------

Thanks Kevin - it is as I thought - the law of diminishing returns heavily applies. Have considered MOTEC alpha-n systems - but I want a reliable daily driver.

Sorry guys - getting of-topic.....will end now.

Thanks again Kevin.
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