91' E-34 vs. 00' AUDI S4??!!

[JON]

Hi fellow M5ers,

I have quite a dilegma here... My 91' E-34 //M5 has just undergone a major service/repairs. I have put over $6,000 in repairs in the last few months(Clutch, tranny, driveline, alternator, H20 pump etc..) It is in overall great condition, brand new Paint A.C. Mirrors, Zender wing, so its looking and driving very well. Although it has 120k miles and has proved to be somewhat unreliable. So, I am looking into getting the new S4... You all know about both of them the 2000' S4 & E-34 //M5. Plus AUDI performance has a $1800 option for the S4 that includes a reprograming of the computer, intake/exhaust, Boosts the S4 to 350hp! Plus the car holds a warranty w/o the OBD3 programing. Its a real tough decision and am stuck like a duck. Any body with any opinions just pin it up on the board! DRIVE HARD

Thanks,
Jon
(91' E-34 //M5)

[RYAN]

Jon,

I would suggest that you sell your old 91 and go for the Audi. I don't think there is anything currently out there that's as good, or better for the money. Plus you get that warranty which includes all scheduled and unscheduled maintanence.

Hey! What is the name of this performance option that you mentioned? (The name given in the S4 catalog) Also, post similiar information, and your thoughts on the Audi in the section about cars similiar to the M5. (That section needs to be beefed up a bit.)

[GERI]

Hi Jon

What the hell are you comparing an E34 3.6L M5 against an 2000 Audi S4. I mean, the Audi is nine Year yonger than your current M5. If there would be no change that would be a very bad situation! The S4 is a lot smaller than a M5 you should compare the new M3 with the S4 then you are talking about cars in the same size. Go an compare the M5 with the Audi S6 and you will find out which car still the champ is. That you had some minor problems is quite normal and depends on your driving style and of course has to do with the age as well.

Go and get a new M5 from your dealer for a test ride. I got one for two days from my dealer and I must say that it's a huge difference compared to the E34 3.8L M5 that I got.

I would never choose an Audi, just because it's a better Volkswagen and the steering and suspension respose is just not that good as it is in the BMW M-cars. In Europe in comparison tests Audi S -BMW M, BMW is always the winner, I guess there must be a reason for that. If you want a car in the size and speed of the S4 wait for the new M3 there you will have it and eat it!

regards

Geir

[Tom C]

Jon:

What is the $1,800 Audi Performance option? I have never heard of this. Is this something Audi offers and is under the warrranty?


Tom

[Roman]

Jon,
I have never heard of the $1,800 Performance Package from Audi. If that had been available, I myself definitely would have gotten it in a second.

I have doubts that there is a factory authorized upgrade to 350HP, and with a warranty, because that means they would have to boost the small turbos to at least 1 bar, or about 14 psi, whereas the turbos can take only about 14.5-15 psi max and you would only get about 310 HP, but the torque might be phenomenol, at around 375 ftlbs. For 350, I would have to guess that a freer flowing exhaust system would have to go in, but that's only good for another 10-15 HP. I really don't know where they are getting the other 25-25 HP. The RS4 is supposed to be getting 380HP, but that is the result of flowed heads (porting/polishing, maybe through extrude honing which is a big thing these days), bigger valves, and a fully engineered, equalized exhaust system, among a few other electronic mods. So I would guess the dealer has something going with either a local tuner or with an aftermarket dealer. You should check again. Maybe I'll even call my dealer up and ask him about it myself. Hmmmm...

I know of several aftermarket tuners for the S4. Feel free to e-mail me for their numbers, or ask whatever questions you have on my experiences with the car.

However, the S4 is a good choice, much to the dismay of Geri (or is it Geir?---that's the way you signed) or other M5'ers here. I wouldn't get the current M3, because well, the new one is coming out now soon. The biggest complaint I hear from just about EVERY M3 owner is the fact the car revs high in 5th gear, so cruising at 80 can get tiresome after a while. The new M3 is supposed to overcome this, and become a much more compliant car. But by the time it comes out and you're name comes up for delivery, you'll have your M5 back on the road. I also hear there is also a long waiting list for the new one. As far as Geri/Geir recommending you go to the dealer and test drive the 2000 M5 and pick it up, if it were only that easy! Geri/Geir, you must know someone real well in order to be able to pick one up at a whim (I guess I'll just put my Budweiser away and get my lazy butt up from my easychair and take a walk over to my local BMW dealership and take the 2000 M5 off their hands.) For all others, wait in line for at like another year, if not more!

I have the 2000 S4, and quite honestly, it is not the M5 and it will NEVER be the M5. But you know, it has cohones big time, and the handling is great as well as acceleration. I felt VERY comfortable driving at 135 MPH behind the M5'ers at the Northeast M5 meet yesterday. It was frightening, but the stability of the car was extremely reassuring. And talk to Kelvin---he'll give you some insight as well on the handling. Actually, talk to AndyP as well---I gave him the keys to take a spin in it for about 10-15 minutes. As a 2000 M5 owner himself, I am sure he can give you a very unbiased opinion---but don't expect him to give it a rave review coming out of a 250HP car when he has been driving a 400HP behemoth for several months.

As far as roominess is concerned, it has lots of that, so bullshit for saying it has no room. And by the way, it has a full size spare, not some goop and a CO/2 cartridge that BMW gave the M5, as well as an in-dash CD player, not the thingamajig in the trunk. You know Geri, I'm sorry, but I tire very easily of people who judge anything before experiencing it. If you're gonna bash the poor thing, at least take the time to test drive it. You're starting to sound like Chraun (although I like the guy) who is basing everything on articles and articles from Europe about the "platform" of VAG. FYI, Car & Driver did a road test of the S4 at the same time they did of the M5, in their December 1999 issue. Read that one, OK? The least you can do.

Geri, you are wrong with the suspension and handling. All four sides have forged aluminum pieces. The brakes are much larger, and if I am correct, road tests showed that it takes the car only 1 foot more to come to a full stop than for the 2000 M5. Guess Jon'll just have to start slowing down sooner.

Jon, I am guessing that you're considering the S4 because of its availability. It is a good choice. Just remember you're not buying it as a substitute for the M5 and you'll do fine.

Geri/Geir, Audi IS a better Volkswagen, that's why you pay a bit more.

[JON]

As far as the "Audi performace package" for the S4, I believe that the dealer does not have anything to do with it, nor does Audi themselves. The "expert" over at the Audi dealership reverted it as a -performace package- that Audi performance does, they are a specialized Audi tuner. So there's the solution to that problem. Although it does push the turbos up to around 14psi and also does the usual timing/fuel changes, the upgrade is supposed to push 350bhp out of the small 2.7. Warranty expires when the programing is disrupted, although the other performace upgrades can be passed, free-flow exhaust/intake. There are a few more things that I have been told that can be done to the S4 w/o upping the boost or adding a Turbo-timer. Are there any other suggestions?

I have a few questions for Roman. Is there is short shift linkage kit available? Have you experienced any problems with your new S4? What is the factor of control with the S4, does it ever break traction, or loose it on pin turns- i know my M5 will very easily with a little too much throttle. Anything you might expect of being a future S4 owner... hehehe like the M5's 280 gearbox wich is a bad design. How would you compare the E-34 90-95' //M5 with the new Audi, handling/responsiveness? I have not yet had the opportunity to give the new 00' M5 a try, just my great lil' E-34. So I really wouldn't know what I am missing from the new one, if you know what I mean. And yes the S4 is available rather than the new M5. Audi has some very good aspects to consider, the Quattro which has been outlawed in racing due to its advantage, plus the flat torque curve that enables the S4 w/ only 250bhp to pull off such great performace & little to none turbo lagg. It is a very hard decision although I need to consider both sides. Can you really have incredible Acceleration in wet conditions? I Look forward figuring this thing out quite soon. Maybe not a substitute for the M5 but sure a step up/across w/o any worries. Roman, how much of a difference did you see in the A4 2.8 vs. the S4? See you all later

Thanks!
Jon

[Roman]

I've got about 2000 miles on my S4 already, and I have begun pushin it a bit more now. There are a few problems with it, as with any car, but minor ones and it depends on the owner/driver. First, the gas mileage sucks big time. I am really disappointed with the mileage and I get about at most, 22 mpg on the highway. The fuel tank seems to be too small for this car---I have heard M5 owners complaining about this as well. Something new from Germany?? The ride is superb for NYC streets and potholes and such, the car gives me a very supple ride, but I feel it is still a bit too soft, but that's because the car is built for "the masses" and I am used to very stiff bone rattling suspensions. I personally don't like Bridgestones, which are on the car---they tend to be a bit too loud on the highway and a bit too soft for spirited driving. But the handling nonetheless I find to be superb,and I can tell you that from recent experience with the Northeast M5 meet this past Friday. With the V6 and the turbos, you have to keep the revs up in order to keep it in a desirable power range. I took a 15mph hairpin turn at a speed very likely well over twice that (as did the others and was a total surprise to all of us) and I felt the rear giving way, but at the same time the front pulled me out. There is no doubt in my mind, that had it been done with solely a RWD, all the M5'ers would have had a field day pulling me out of the ditch, which also happened to be like a 100 foot drop.

There is a world of difference between the 2.8 and the 2.7TT. Don't get the 2.8 unless you're a girl. You won't get any benefit from the engine. The S4 overall is a different vehicle, despite what you hear from others.

There are lots of aftermarket parts available for the S4 because it is turning out to be a venerable competitor. There is a short-shifter kit available from UUCMotorwerks, the same guy who builds one for the M5, also from TAP, or Total Audi Performance. Both have websites, check them out.

Neuspeed carries a sway bar kit for the rear. The stock is a 15mm, while the aftermarket provides for two---a 19mm and the 22mm. I hear most are going for the 22mm.

As far as reprogramming the ECU is concerned, I am totally surprised that someone is claiming 350HP with simple changes. I have doubts. And you really gotta be careful, as a lot of these guys make big claims and little changes. There are several "chip tuners" out there: TAP, APR, Wett, GIAC, MTM/Hoppen, AutoAuthority, all claiming some form of improvement. For the S4, you would want more torque as opposed to HP. You also want to make certain the the upgrade provides for a smooth torque curve similar to stock, rather than sudden surges or breaks, so talk to the tuner about how he does the changes. Do a lot of interviewing; talk to these guys. I am not certain about the effectiveness of an aftermarket exhaust system unless you have a true dual, and that would make the car sound louder. One of the better things about the S4 is its stealth quietness. Bigger, single exhausts like the Borla, I have not had good experiences in the past. Borla always claims big increases for cat-back systems, but I have not seen anything realistic. I know UCCMotorwerks makes a true dual exhaust, but it's $$$$.

Acceleration in wet weather is no different than on dry pavement. Winter weather traction is great too, but on ice, nothing works. I have personal testimonials from this past winter in the Poconos and recall seeing an M3 struggling to get to the top of the mountain---he would have been better off walking. On dry pavement the M3 is phenomenol, but in wet or wintery weather its is horrible. The AWD system is not the viscuous system like you would find on some less expensive systems. I recall the 325iX had the viscuous system which was somewhat weak, which was why the car didn't do as well as it should have.

I can't tell you the difference between the E34, other than I have driven one many years ago (totally stock) and the wail of the 6 cylinders was music to my ears. I don't think you can compare it with the E34 or even the E28, but for what it seems you are looking for, the S4 just might be a good substitute for the time being.

If you like, e-mail me and I will tell you a bit more. I feel very guilty about "promoting" the S4 on an M5 messageboard---I apologize to all of you M5'ers---I do not mean to disrespect anyone.

[KKelly]

There was a thread about gas mileage on the Audi board as well. It seems strange to me that a car that weighs 300lbs less than the M5 and has a 2.7 vs. 3.6 should be getting about the same mileage--especially 9 years later with all the advances in engine management. The only difference is the AWD which I understand is not "full time" unless the car senses it needs it--or I could be wrong. I know it will vary power to each tire as needed. If I can get 23 on the highway with nine year old car and a 3.91 final drive--Audi should be able to surpass that number in Y2K with only 2.7 liters.

[KKelly]

Jon, since you already spent the money on repairs, why not drive the car another couple of years--or at least a year--and let Audi make some improvements to the S4 in the meantime. If you engine has good compression it should go to nearly 200k no problem. You just replaced the most expensive items on the E34 and your drivetrain should be bulletproof for quite a while. $6k is a lot but if the car is paid for it will take a while to make $40k worth of repairs.

[Roman]

Kevin, regarding the gas mileage,like most everyone else, with a car like this, I have a lead foot, except on the highway. But my figures are "average". I imagine, that if I were to maintain a steady foot everytime, my mileage would come out to be around 24-25 mpg. Can't do that.

From what I have been told, the AWD is AWD all the time, but more/less torque is transferred to the required sides during manuevers or on slippery surfaces.

I don't really see what improvements Audi can make to the S4 really, other than HP output increases, and even that I doubt will be forthcoming. It is a well balanced car overall. The car is really fine for the price and what it gives the owner/driver as it now is. I'm still waiting for some major problems to occur, but so far so good.

As far as power increases, I would recommend to Jon to be careful with the tuners as I said before. APR for instance says they can raise your output to 307HP, with torque up to 375 ftlbs just with a "chip". Jon can actually wait until the new M3 comes out, and put himself on the waiting list but he apparently is looking for something right now. My only other suggestion to him is to go see if he could pick up a new M3 at a deep discount, taking into consideration the new model is coming in very soon, so most dealers might be willing to bargain. I would recommend he read the December 1999 Car & Driver article on the S4 to get a good idea what he is looking at.

I can understand where he is going with his
E34. He prefers to put the car back in pristine condition sooner than later, rather than running the car to 200,000 where he might encounter an even greater requirement for upgrades.

I don't care either way what he picks up, I just wanted to give him a different perspective relative a crowd that is entirely dedicated solely to the BMW.

[JON]

Gas mileage shouldn't even be significant, especially if you are getting into a $40-80K vehicle. It is an issue when it gets down to 10mpg or under, hehehe. Just like my small block Camaro hot-rod, now thats horrible gas mileage. In all actuality 20-25 mpg is quite decent for the high-performance that you can get out of these autos. My M5 averages 19mpg from the 3.6 or about 300 miles to the tank, not bad for 315hp. Discussing the S4 is not in anyway a bad discussion even though this is the M5 site, just comparing the competition. Well I've got to go... Till another day...

Jon