Should the M5 and M6 get 4-whell drive?

[mumbasic]

I have reported earlier about my first drive with a 645 Ci. The car is really superb. But on whett streets I had have traction problems. The DSC lamp was more on then off.
When driving on similar conditions with my Porsche 996 tt the ESP-lamp never lights. Of course the Porsche has the motor at rear but he also have 4-wheel drive. Also I have read a lot articles about the new X3 (my wife will buy one). There is described that the new 4-wheel drive is more for traction then for any other things.

So if a 645 Ci has problems with the traction with 333 HP then the problems will rice with 500 HP. In my opinion the new X-drive would be perfect to solve the problem. They can put 100% power on the rear tyres (I would suggest only 70%) and in case of loosing traction they can put more on the front axle.

What do you think about?

Greetings

Adnan

[Enigma]

NO !!

Seriously, we have covered this before on here. BMW M cars are designed to be GT car. They are not rally cars designed to go bounding about in low traction conditions.

• 4wd adds weight
• 4wd adds parasitic drivetrain losses
• 4wd dulls the handling of the car.
• 4wd is of at best margional use in the dry.

A few weeks ago while my M3 was waiting on tires I had the chance to drive a Evo VIII at the autocross. Most would agree that and Evo is one of the best handling 4wd cars made. My first run of the day it was wet. Without a doubt the evo was faster in those conditions than my car would have been. However, once it dried up any advantage that the 4wd would have given the evo was gone.

However, the big thing I took away is that the evo is not nearly as rewarding to drive. One of the big reasons is that the 4wd system covers up driver error. It takes far less skill to be fast in a 4wd car and the ultimate limits are lower for a skilled driver.

If you want a large sports luxury sedan designed to make anyone feel like they have skill, and/or, made to go racing in the rain or snow then the RS6 is for you, not an M car.

[Ashok Arora]

Agreed. 4wd and/or forced induction would dilute the pure M experience.

[absent]

A good set of winter tires will solve the problem for snowy days.
My old S8 with stock tires was way more dangerous in winter then my E55 with Dunlop M3's.

[mumbasic]

but the M5 will have 550 HP (news on autobild.de). I had a chance to drive a Maserati with 480 hp. It was impossible to drive the car on whett streets.

I agree for a sports car weight is very important, but then you should by a Porsche and not a M5. If you can´t put the power on the street then you have a car which can only drive fast if it is straight! Like MB E 55 AMG. But is this a real sports car then? I think no.

In my opinion putting the power on the street is esential.

Adnan

[mumbasic]

Originally Posted by absent

A good set of winter tires will solve the problem for snowy days.
My old S8 with stock tires was way more dangerous in winter then my E55 with Dunlop M3's.

in Germany everone is using winter tyres. If not and you are involved unguilty in an accident then you will be 30% guilty.

Winter tyres don´t solve any traction problem, opose they increase because they are not so strong as summer tyres.

[Enigma]

Originally Posted by mumbasic

In my opinion putting the power on the street is esential.

Sure, there will be no problem in the dry. However, I don't know how you can expect to put down 500+ hp in the rain (I am assuming you mean wet when you say whett).

In the rain the M5/6 will be every bit as drivable as any other BMW. However, that extra edge will need to be left for dry days. If you think 4wd is some cure all for traction problems then I would suggest you try to drive a 4wd car in the rain at a track day or autocross. You will find that all the 4wd does is allow you to dig your hole faster if you don't know how to drive the car. 4wd cars don't turn or stop any better. Actually in most cases they cannot match a rwd car in either category, wet, snow, or dry. Its all about weight and weight distribution. This is why an M car shouldn't have 4wd.

BTW: I don't think anyone believes that an M3/5/6 is a true "sports" car. What makes them special is they are medium to large luxury cars that can kick the a** of most sports cars street or track.

[mumbasic]

Originally Posted by Enigma

Sure, there will be no problem in the dry. However, I don't know how you can expect to put down 500+ hp in the rain (I am assuming you mean wet when you say whett).

In the rain the M5/6 will be every bit as drivable as any other BMW. However, that extra edge will need to be left for dry days. If you think 4wd is some cure all for traction problems then I would suggest you try to drive a 4wd car in the rain at a track day or autocross. You will find that all the 4wd does is allow you to dig your hole faster if you don't know how to drive the car. 4wd cars don't turn or stop any better. Actually in most cases they cannot match a rwd car in either category, wet, snow, or dry. Its all about weight and weight distribution. This is why an M car shouldn't have 4wd.

BTW: I don't think anyone believes that an M3/5/6 is a true "sports" car. What makes them special is they are medium to large luxury cars that can kick the a** of most sports cars street or track.

then you have to try a Porsche 996 turbo with 4wd and you will see that the car can drive much faster then a 2 wd car (on wet conditions). Also you will have problems to put 550 hp with 2 wd on dry conditions.

Adnan

PS. whett should be wet

[Enigma]

Originally Posted by mumbasic

then you have to try a Porsche 996 turbo with 4wd and you will see that the car can drive much faster then a 2 wd car (on wet conditions). Also you will have problems to put 550 hp with 2 wd on dry conditions.

A 4wd car will out accelerate a 2wd car in the wet. It doesn't have a cornering or braking advantage. 4wd gives a lot of drivers a false sense of comfort.

There is a reason the GT2 and GT3 are rwd unlike their base models. AWD was added to the 911 for the purpose of dulling the handling of the car because too many people were getting in over their heads. Thankfully because BMW doesn't put the engine behind the rear wheels we have a far better balanced car to start from and DSC should be enough to keep the large number of unskilled drivers from getting into too much trouble.

[vndkshn]

I agree totally with Egnima on this one. Having driven AWD cars in wet and dry, the feeling they give is definately a false sense of security in cornering and braking.

Will a AWD car turn a lap faster in the rain than a RWD car? Sure, they can place more power on the ground to help in acceleration. They also help negate some of the oversteer, especially under power.

I for one believe that the M series should not add AWD in order to help drivers get the power to the ground. IMHO, Ms should always require their drivers to raise their abilities in order to take advantage of the available abilities of the car. I believe that was the original intention of the M line, when looking back at the original M3s. To me, it appears the original intention was to make a high power car for people that really knew how to drive, instead of making a high power car that people can drive (like the AMG).

[MEnthusiast]

Im with you guys. The M cars are supposed to be high performance cars for the street. You dont want to use all that high performance in sub-optimal conditions: weather, traffic, etc. I have no problem with BMW offering AWD on the other models- as a matter of fact, I think they should offer it as an option, if possible. But for the M cars- no. Plus it gives you something to learn- how do you put all that power down smoothly. Anyone can mash the accelerator of an automatic awd car and get pulled forward. I like Enigma's line about AWD helping you to dig the hole faster.

[pdiack]

I don't think there is a right/wrong answer to this. AWD isn't just for wet/sub-optimal conditions - it's a means of getting lots of power to the pavement faster -- several high-performance manufacturers like Audi/Porsche/Lamborghini have embraced AWD for this purpose. While I certainly don't know the technical advantages/disadvantages - I absolutely loved the 911 C4 I used to own and it was siginficantly easier to drive than 2WD variants of the normally aspirated versions of 911's I have had.

I would guess BMW wouldn't go AWD - there isn't a history there (that I'm aware of).