New M5 V10 5.0 L will be for sale in Europe in September 2003

I talked today to one of the reps that work for BMW Europe, the guy said that there will be not much delay in introducing the new M5. The European opening to the E60 5 series will be in March 2003, and later the same year, in september 2003 the M5 and the new M6 will be relased!!:biggrin: :biggrin: .
I just today was put #1 on the list for the new M5. I will be the first person in Poland to have one :blabla: hiha .

They say that if all goes well i will have it in my garage in March 2004!!

The base price will be at around 100.000 EURO. The base version will NOT even have a NAV in standard, almost everything will be an option here in Europe. He said that a decently equiped car will come aroud 115.000 EURO.

here in Poland this is how the currency values line up:
1$ - 4.25 zl. / 1 EURO = 3.64 zl.

robert.

:cheers: :biggrin:

excellent.

I have been stating that the next M5 will be a V10 for a long time, but there has been a chorus of detractors. I only post the info I believe to be reliable. If it turns out to be wrong then my info was wrong. I hear V10 and close to 500bhp and gobs of torque!

I just hope it looks nothing like the 7.

Why only 5L with the V-10? What's the advantage to adding 2 cylinders if the displacement remains the same essentially?

Also, don't want to rain on the parade I'm a part of, but I expect delays and I'm sure it will take longer to reach the US.

Finally, that price will push it up over 90K in USD before taxes! That would be a huge price jump!

Chris

Originally posted by Dallas Spikes
Finally, that price will push it up over 90K in USD before taxes! That would be a huge price jump!Don't expect the US prices to necessarily be in-line with the European prices. I don't believe this was the case with the E39 M5 so I doubt it will be with the E60 M5.

I totaly agree with you, i don't think the European price will have any affect on the US price.
Just to comare you guy's in the US have more options standard and that's why there is a diference in $$.



robert.
ps.(the NAV system is standard in the US wright??)

yes nav is standard in the US...
but too bad we don't have the TV function straight out of the box from BMW...well at least we have Nav-TV to modify it :)

Just how reliable is this tip? We have been subject to a lot of changes in what we hear and what actually does happen.

Congtatulations Robert. I'm still waiting for my 2002 M5. Ordered it last week. Drop me a note when you get a chance: albertbryndza@hotmail.com. I will be coming to Poland in a few weeks for the Christening of my cousin's boy. How far is Sosnowiec from Lublin / Krasnik?

BTW, your PM box is full, I tried to PM you but the board didn't allow me to.

I have know doubt that the new M5 will be a v-10. I also believe it will be available much sooner than the past history of M5 release dates VS. the new 5 series releases. The marketplace has changed so much since '99, when the current generation of
M5 was released!! If you remember, even before the M5, BMW was still the producer of the best, fastest, baddest 4-door vehicle in the world with the 540i. Now, with Mercedes upping the ante so much, in such a short period of time, BMW has to get the new M5/M6 to market much quicker than ever before!! Each month that goes by without one, only sends prospective buyers who may prefer Bimmers, over to rival Mercedes.....

Yes, I am a firm believer in competition, as the consumer always comes out on top--so Mercedes can keep upping the ante, which will only force BMW to come up with something that much better than them!!!

Thre is much more competition and sense of urgency for BMW to contend with, and I can assure you they won't let us down....Mark it on the calendar...The M5 will be out much sooner than we have come to expect from BMW, and to beat the Benzes, it will have to have a v-10....

HotRod

WHAT?? really? that fast? the E60 M5 will be out that quick? Hummmmm and for how much? I hope they dont have too much of a price jump on it.

OK, for you mechanics out there, I'll ask it again. How will a new V-10 with the same displacement as the current V-8 (5L) generate more power?

Power from a car engine basically boils down to displacement, energy (fuel type - high octane gasoline), and efficiency. If you hold dispacement and fuel the same, then all of the gains have to come in efficiency and I don't see how a V-10 is inherently more efficient or more importantly why you couldn't just apply whatever adjustments those are to the V-8????

With our cars, they adjusted both the dispacement (stroke and bore job from the 540 engine) and efficiency (highly tuned) to generate the extra 115 or so horses from it. I just don't see how they could get another 100+ horses without increasing the displacement. All are welcome to educate me!!

Thanks,

Chris

Robert is right! The V 10 WILL happen. My ///M6 will employ it yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwww
:thumbsup: :cheers:

heres a fun thing to ponder: v10 making ~500bhp/ smg3 / all wheel drive?!!!

that last part is a guess by me. supposedly BMW will offer AWD as an option throughout the entire 5er range. Does that mean M5? my gut says no, but you never know..................

as for looks- expect BMW to continue the shock campaign. I have a feeling the 5 will be more palitable than the 7er but it will come from the same design tree.......... Im actually looking forward to the 7 technology trickling down to the 5.

So does this mean that the E-39 production will cease in February, or sooner?

Looks like it's time for that E60 section! All those news popping up!

The V10 500hp M5 is coming out.... Eat your heart out supercharged E55 :thumbsup: :haha:

Someone PLEASE answer Chris's question:

"OK, for you mechanics out there, I'll ask it again. How will a new V-10 with the same displacement as the current V-8 (5L) generate more power? "

I'm curious too how it's possible to get 100 more hp out of it with same displacement.

Originally posted by Dallas Spikes
Why only 5L with the V-10? What's the advantage to adding 2 cylinders if the displacement remains the same essentially?

Also, don't want to rain on the parade I'm a part of, but I expect delays and I'm sure it will take longer to reach the US.


Hello Chris,

I think that the advantage of making more smaller cylinders is that you can significantly raise the redline, and the power. The M5 is not very impressive in terms of horsepower per liter, compared to (say) a Honda S2000, and one of the reasons is that it revs so slowly.

I would *NEVER* get the first model year of the E60 M5. It sounds like it will come out slightly early as a '04 model. So, I would have to wait until the '05 or possibly even '06 model year---I want to be sure that they work out all of the bugs. This should be good timing, because I have a 2002 M5.

Originally posted by petesamprs
Someone PLEASE answer Chris's question:

"OK, for you mechanics out there, I'll ask it again. How will a new V-10 with the same displacement as the current V-8 (5L) generate more power? "

I'm curious too how it's possible to get 100 more hp out of it with same displacement.

You could easily get 600hp out of 5L with no turbo---ask Honda how they get 240 out of 2L. hmmm

I'm physicist, not a mechanic, but let me guess:

The rough power would be proportional to the product of engine displacement, V, the rate at which it turns, f, and the amount of air/fuel that one can jam inside a cyclinder, given by boost (P/Po). So, power = constant * V * f * (P/Po)

Increasing the displacement makes V bigger, so you get more power.

More cyclinders makes f larger, so you get more power. (The S2000 can turn at 9000 RPM, and a F1 car can turn at 18000.)

Adding a supercharger makes P larger, so you get more power (and Po is the ambient air pressure).

Did this help?

doug- here in Poland (Europe) the last time to order an M5 is October 2002!!!:crying:

UCSDxBOi - the person i talked with said there will NOT be a price jump.
The new M5 will run about 97.500 $$ here in Europe.
Well equiped!!

Mr Horse - Lublin is around 350 km from where i live, but thats no problem, let me know when you will be here.

atomic80 - it's reliable enough for me, the BMW dealer here in Katowice has some kind of confirmation that it is finally happening this time for sure.:biggrin:

young mc - in Europe the TV is an option to the NAV, it runs about 350 $.


see ya,

robert.

:cheers:

Ok so we are all pretty sure that the next m5 will have 500bhp and a v10..ok but we ahvent got any offical press release etc from bmw..When do you guys think that bmw will release it?I'm thinking and i was thinking to myself ok if i was bmw when would i tell the world about the next genm5..ok how about at the launch or damn as well near to it of the new e55?Which is coming out over here in europe late this year..thats when i beleive we will have some definite answers..

all the best
Adam

You certainly don't need to increase displacement to increase power. No offense, but that logic was from the days of American muscle cars. The V-10 has a more balanced and even power pulse than a V-8. I think it has improved vibration characteristics. It should be able to rev. more and generate some more h.p. from revs. Increased torque will be available across the power band too, with the use of Valvetronic technology. It should be no problem for BMW.

Someone said the M5 revs. to slowly? I don't think that's what you mean. The M5s throttle response is probably better than the S2000. Individual throttles per cylinder and drive-by-wire throttle control the S2000 does not have.

The new Mercedes SL model is getting less than stellar reviews in the U.S. No one is raving about it, except for its looks. The SL55 is really nothing. It is basically only equal to the M5 in acceleration, except at very high speeds. Its handling should be nothing exceptional with 4300 pounds. I don't feel that AMG is any threat at all. BMW will re-define all the standards in terms of performance, and all the Merc. guys will STILL be rationalizing by saying stuff like "the M5 is only slightly faster than the E55."

Was at my dealers this Saturday and he said they had been asked by BMW to take a poll on which transmission the M5 buyers wanted. He said it would be one or the other, not both.

My answer...EITHER!!!! Bring on that V10!!!!

Keith

For more explanation regarding engine smoothness:
http://autozine.kyul.net/technical_school/engine/smooth4.htm#V10

I believe the current M5 V8 engine is understressed since it only produces 80ps (or roughly 80hp) per liter@ 6,800 rpm, which is lower than the S38B38 motor at 89ps/L. The E36M3 3.2 and the E46M3-3.3 motor breaks the 100ps/L barrier which is produced at 7,400rpm and 7,900rpm respectively.

Since M3s are much lighter that M5s it is logical that the engine characteristics lean more toward high rpm type. M5s on the other hand needs more torque especially for USA customers thus BMW engineers opted to go to extra displacement route.

If BMW want to stay competitive they will have to introduce a higher-revving M5 motor to produce more HP. I don't think this will be a problem, with the 5,000cc displacement and today's advanced engine motronics 500ps is a walk in the park be it a V8, V10 or a V12. The only obstacle will be to priorotize between torque and HP. After all the car will be restricted to 155mph/250kmh and most customers, especially in the USA, rarely drive past 170mph.

MBZ on the other hand take the easy route by supercharging their current motors.

Just my $0.02

Taffy

Hmmmm.....should i put deposit now?! :haha:

Keep in mind;

U.S. BMW (or Merc) prices are different from europe or else were. I heard that BMW USA negotiates pricing with BMW AG so we will have different pricing from say England. We buy our cars from BMW USA.

I believe the V10 rumers. I posted quotes from a full page article out of Autoweek a few months ago. Having read them for a while, they seem to get good early info.

If mext M5 has 5L V10, note that each engine rev has 25% more firings than our current V8. That means more torque at a given rpm. Since each pison is smaller and lighter, and each cylinder is smaller (fills and empties faster) the V10 can run at higher rpms. With more torque and higher rpms, it is easy for me to believe the 500Hp figure.

It is clear that M cars are much more important for BMW in the US than 10 years ago. I think that we will see the next M5 sooner (maybe just hope) than with the last model.

TD 2000 M5

Thanks to those that responded to my request, but I'm still nowhere close to being clear on this.

Vague statements like talking about "sqeezing" or "wringing" out more horsepower still don't answer the question at the fundamental level. What is better about a V-10 over a V-8 with the same displacement. The vibration issue is an answer, but I don't understand the "why's" of it. The increased revs don't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you increased the revs on our car, you would increase horsepower, but not change torque. Even if this is part of the answer, why is it easier to have a higher revving V-10 than V-8? I still stand by my original confusion, but I will add a modifier to it:

How will a V-10 with the same displacement as our V-8, SIGNIFICANTLY increase both HP and torque?

I need some engineering insight!

Chris

Originally posted by HBRAMSTEDT
Increased torque will be available across the power band too, with the use of Valvetronic technology.

I remember reading somewhere that the new M Engines don't have Valvetronic, because the adjustment mechanism is too slow for high performance engines...hmmm

-MVI-

Originally posted by TD
Keep in mind;
If mext M5 has 5L V10, note that each engine rev has 25% more firings than our current V8. That means more torque at a given rpm. Since each pison is smaller and lighter, and each cylinder is smaller (fills and empties faster) the V10 can run at higher rpms. With more torque and higher rpms, it is easy for me to believe the 500Hp figure.

TD 2000 M5



Are you sure about this? What you are saying basically is that keeping displacement the same for the entire engine, more cylinders gives more torque?? There are many engines in production cars that contradict this. More cylinders gives you more power impulses, but if each cylinder is smaller then the individual power impulses will also be smaller.
And if the V10 is going to have peak power at high RPM then it's low RPM torque characteristic will definitely suffer.

Michael

Originally posted by Adam
Ok so we are all pretty sure that the next m5 will have 500bhp and a v10..ok but we ahvent got any offical press release etc from bmw..When do you guys think that bmw will release it?I'm thinking and i was thinking to myself ok if i was bmw when would i tell the world about the next genm5..ok how about at the launch or damn as well near to it of the new e55?Which is coming out over here in europe late this year..thats when i beleive we will have some definite answers..

all the best
Adam

Gotta agree. I have not been able to find any official BMW statement that supports the rumors that the E60 or E63 will have a V10 engine. I'd love to see it happen, mind you, but I'm waiting for confirmation attributed to a named BMW Motorsports executive or from an official BMW-published source. Meanwhile, my local dealership (Moritz) said they are not taking names for either the E60 or E63 M versions, and have not been given allocations.

ye of little faith here is the info you ask for (so far as I knowith):

1. transmission will be a CHOICE of SMG3/ 6 speed manual

2. all BMW automatics in the next decade will be moved to SMG! BMW will continue to offer manuals for a while but eventually they will disappear except for special orders on M vehicles

3. engine will be V10

4. E39 M5 production will end Feb 03.

5. you didnt ask but Z8 production will end June 03.

6. you didnt ask but idrive will be on the next M5 and an option for the regular 5er.

Posted by Michael
<Are you sure about this? What you are saying basically is that keeping <displacement the same for the entire engine, more cylinders gives more <torque?? There are many engines in production cars that contradict this. More <cylinders gives you more power impulses, but if each cylinder is smaller then <the individual power impulses will also be smaller.
<And if the V10 is going to have peak power at high RPM then it's low RPM <torque characteristic will definitely suffer.
<Michael

I am not pretending to be an expert on this. But the reason torque starts to fall off as rpms increase is (put simply) because at some point for any given engine it is harder to get air/fuel in and out. The M5 has an elaborate variable valve system to help this problem (but also to give a smooth flat torque curve, but that is another discussion). Skipping over some details, but at some rpm a V10 will be more efficient, for a while longer as revs build, than a V8 which has bigger cylinders to fill and empty. The V8 (holding all other variables the same) will run out of breath first and its torque curve will fall off before the V10. More torque at a high rpm calculates to more HP.

I also think that even at peak torque rpm figures (say 4000ish), having 10 firings per turn of the crank over 8 has to result in more torque and thus more HP.

At low rpm there may be less difference. But I don't see any dissadvantage for the V10 either.

Plus I read about some cam-shaft less version of the V10 that uses electro magnetic operated valves!!! Who knows what that might mean. Might keep costs down as well!

TD 2000 M5

If the new engine ends up with 1k plus additional rpms you guys would have the closest thing to an F1 engine other than a Ferrari. Too sweet. The real tradition of //M cars is high-revving detuned race engines. Can you imagine driving a car like the M5 and listening to it scream its way to some lofty redline?

You may have to work harder than the Mercedes driver with a 6.0 liter supercharged engine but that is what makes driving fun.

Originally posted by Dallas Spikes

How will a V-10 with the same displacement as our V-8, SIGNIFICANTLY increase both HP and torque?


Increasing the number of cilinders, while retaining the same engine volume will result in smaller cilinder size.

Smaller cilinder size allows better filling of the cilinders to take place, thus (potentially) better fuel mixture in the cilinders.

KKelly i completely agree with you..we may be working just that little bit harder but the rewards will be much greater!

all the best
Adam

Originally posted by robret witelus
I totaly agree with you, i don't think the European price will have any affect on the US price.
Just to comare you guy's in the US have more options standard and that's why there is a diference in $$.



robert.
ps.(the NAV system is standard in the US wright??)

Just be very happy that you don't live here in Norway. The price for the E39 M5 is about 180.000 Euros here (that would be about $160.000).

Sigh, the taxes in this country is killing us...

BMWBergen

Hey guys,

the new M5 will definitely have a V10. My brother had his internship at BMW GmbH München, and there was a lot of 'talk' about it. I'm 100% sure!

:cheers:

Pullie how did your bro get an internship? Sounds like a hell of a lot of fun!

all the best
adam

Following my information, here in Luxemburg, the V10 will be a 5.5L engine, 500HP, 760NM torque, possibly with SMG, rumours says even 4x4. M6 should normally appear before M5.
I am going to order one (M6 or M5), but I do not want to be the first, because of the oil problem of my formal E39 M5...

Roland