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post #1 of 3 Old 12th June 2005, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
Stasis M535i
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Alpina BMW CS coupes - what is the truth?

Hello,

I am looking for some information and some answers about this question.
As i see, the books, brochures, and articles can't give detailed information about the Alpina tuned BMW CS cars.

Please correct my informations and answer my question if you can, thank you.

First of all can you tell me the production names, dates, and produced numbers of these cars ?

BMW name - Alpina name - Alpina production date - Procuded numbers

2800 CS - Alpina B1 - 1969. xx (?) - 1971. 09. (?) - ?
3.0 CS - Alpina B2? - 1971. xx (?) - 1973. xx (?) - ?
3.0 CSi - Alpina B2 - 1971. xx (?) - 1973. xx (?) - ?
3.0 CSL serie 1 - Alpina B?? - 1971. xx (?) - 1972. xx (?) - between 15-18
3.0 CSL serie 2 (or 3 ?)- Alpina B2S? - 1973. xx (?) - 1973. xx (?) - between 3-4
3.0 CSL serie 3.5 (?) (the last 57 cars) - Alpina B2S ? - 1973. xx (?) - 1975. xx (?) - between 2-3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is clear that both E3 and E9 cars were tuned by Alpina. I haven't found any information about if Alpina tuned the E3 2500 carb. engine.
The BMW E3 2800 and E9 2800 CS have the same engine, and the 1971 brochure says that this engine conversion called Alpina B1. (see 7th attachment)

I haven't seen any example of these cars.
- Were there any B1 made ?
- If the answer is yes,
- How many Alpina B1 produced ?
- When did the tuning program started (probably in 1969 january?) and when is it finished ?
- are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )

- What about the alpina 2800 cs from 1969 Spa (Koob/Helners) and 1970 Spa (Kellners/Huber) ?
- Were these the same type of B1 conversion Alpina sold to the "normal" customers, or were these special prepared cars ?
- Did they get any official Alpina "number", like Alpina B1S or something ?
- Are these cars still exists ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's go to 3.0 CS. It is seems that that Alpina made some of them, and there was a racing version - look at the 7th attached file. But like for the B1, i haven't seen any "road" version of the cars. So my question are the same:
- How many Alpina B2 (?) produced ?
- When did the tuning program started and when is it finished ?
- how many cars were made ?
- are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars ?)
- and what is the specification of these cars (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The case of 3.0 CSi it easier that the previous 2 modell. It is called Alpina B2. There is a working example in Germany (see 8th pic) and in Austria (see 9th pic). But i don't know anything else about this conversion, so :
- How many Alpina B2 (?) produced ?
- When did the tuning program started and when is it finished ?
- Are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )
- And what is the specification of these cars ? (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next modell has the most confusing story, and most of the sources says diffent facts of the car. It is the Alpina 3.0 CSL.
It is clear that the last 2-3 car were called B2S because of the 250 HP engine. But the rest of the story is unclear.
For example Bob Harper's BMW Car magazine collected lots of facts, but still there are some unclean parts of the history. It think because of copyright problems i can't scan the article, but you can find it in the November 2003 issue.
Lets look at the 3 series :

1. Nik Bruce (he wrote the article) says that from 1971 - 1972 there was 15-18 3.0 CSL converted. Interesting, because the normal BMW 3.0 CSL was actually a 3.0 CS (carb engine) minus some heavy parts at this time : 1971 september - 1972 july.
- Was it the same time range when the first Alpina 3.0 CSL cars produced ?
- What was the B "number" of these cars ? (B1 or B2?)
- Are the production numbers correct ? (between 15 and 18)
- And what is the specification of these cars (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

2. Let's go to the 2nd batch. The article says : "A year later, just three or four series 1 Batmobile were breathed on."
Again some confusion to me. It is known, that there was 5 different type BMW 3.0 CSL cars made:

1. serie : 1971. September - 1972 July : lightweight version of the 3.0 CS - 169 were made
2. serie / LHD: 1972. September - 1973. April : Tuned 3.0 CSi engine, etc - 429 were made
2. serie / RHD: 1972. September - 1973. Janury - RHD cars for the UK market - 500 were made
3. serie : 1973. April - 1973. July - first Batmobile serie - 110 were made
3.5 serie : 1974. April - 1975. November - second Batmobile serie (some minor changes) - 57 were made.

If i understand correctly, Nik Bruce means : 1972 + a year later = 1973. He wrote that Alpina made Series 1 cars in 1973. This information might be incorrect, because in 1973 BMW already made series 2 cars.
So what is the truth :
- Alpina tuned series 1 cars in 1973 ? (but in this case what about the first Alpina CSL tuning serie in 1971-1972 ?)
- mistyped information, 1973 was the time of the 2. series of BMW 3.0 CSL and Alpina B2S?

And again, the usual questions:
- What was the B "number" of these cars ? (B2 or B2S)
- Are the production numbers correct ? (between 3 and 4)
- Are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )
- And what is the specification of these cars (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

3. 3rd batch of Alpina cars. Even more confusion. At the end of the article where a last serie Alpina B2S tested, Nik says : "Specification : Alpina 3.0-litre CSL Series II)". And : "Capacity : 3020 cc. And in the article he wrote : "and in 1974 only two or three Series II cars made if off the lines. One of which was Mortier's is" (Patrick Mortier is the owner of this car)

Again : is it series 2 or series 3 ? BMW made series 3 cars in 1974. Also I wonder that why the "normal" CSL engine weren't tuned by Alpina. Didn't they used BMW 3.2 CSL engine ?
The usual questions:
- Are the production numbers correct ? (between 2 and 3)
- What was the time range when the these Alpina B2S cars produced (Year.Month - Year.Month)?
- how many of these B2S cars alive ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's go to the "Id that picture part". Between 1971 and 1974 there was several Alpina 3.0 CSL cars featured in the articles, and i have seen some example on the internet, too.

Can you identify these cars like : which Alpina 3.0 CSL serie (1, 2 or 3), which Alpina number (B2 or B2S), production date, and probably VIN numbers.

5th pic : probably from 1973
6th pic : Auto Motor und Sport magazine 1972
1st pic : Carey Ilda's Car
2nd pic : probable from 1972, found at : http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/alp30csl72-1.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally, let's talk about the Alpina conversion of BMW 2.5CS.
- Were there any of these cars made ?
- If the answer is yes,
Hello,

I am looking for some information and some answers about this question.
As i see, the books, brochures, and articles can't give detailed information about the Alpina tuned BMW CS cars.

Please correct my informations and answer my question if you can, thank you.

First of all can you tell me the production names, dates, and produced numbers of these cars ?

BMW name - Alpina name - Alpina production date - Procuded numbers

2800 CS - Alpina B1 - 1969. xx (?) - 1971. 09. (?) - ?
3.0 CS - Alpina B2? - 1971. xx (?) - 1973. xx (?) - ?
3.0 CSi - Alpina B2 - 1971. xx (?) - 1973. xx (?) - ?
3.0 CSL serie 1 - Alpina B?? - 1971. xx (?) - 1972. xx (?) - between 15-18
3.0 CSL serie 2 (or 3 ?)- Alpina B2S? - 1973. xx (?) - 1973. xx (?) - between 3-4
3.0 CSL serie 3.5 (?) (the last 57 cars) - Alpina B2S ? - 1973. xx (?) - 1975. xx (?) - between 2-3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is clear that both E3 and E9 cars were tuned by Alpina. I haven't found any information about if Alpina tuned the E3 2500 carb. engine.
The BMW E3 2800 and E9 2800 CS have the same engine, and the 1971 brochure says that this engine conversion called Alpina B1. (see 1st attachment)

I haven't seen any example of these cars.
- Were there any B1 made ?
- If the answer is yes,
- How many Alpina B1 produced ?
- When did the tuning program started (probably in 1969 ?) and when is it finished ?
- are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )

- What about the alpina 2800 cs from 1969 Spa (Koob/Helners) and 1970 Spa (Kellners/Huber) ?
- Were these the same type of B1 conversion Alpina sold to the "normal" customers, or were these special prepared cars ?
- Did they get any official Alpina "number", like Alpina B1S or something ?
- Are these cars still exists ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's go to 3.0 CS. It is seems that that Alpina made some of them, and there was a racing version - look at the 1st attached file. But like for the B1, i haven't seen any "road" version of the cars. So my question are the same:
- How many Alpina B2 (?) produced ?
- When did the tuning program started and when is it finished ?
- how many cars were made ?
- are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars ?)
- and what is the specification of these cars (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The case of 3.0 CSi it easier that the previous 2 modell. It is called Alpina B2. There is a working example in Germany (see 2nd pic) and in Austria (see 3rd pic). But i don't know anything else about this conversion, so :
- How many Alpina B2 (?) produced ?
- When did the tuning program started and when is it finished ?
- how many cars were made ?
- are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )
- and what is the specification of these cars ? (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next modell has the most confusing story, and most of the sources says diffent facts of the car. It is the Alpina 3.0 CSL.
It is clear that the last 2-3 car were called B2S because of the 250 HP engine. But the rest of the story is unclear.
For example Bob Harper's BMW Car magazine collected lots of facts, but still there are some unclean parts of the history. It think because of copyright problems i can't scan the article, but you can find it in the November 2003 issue.
Lets look at the 3 series :

1. Nik Bruce (he wrote the article) says that from 1971 - 1972 there was 15-18 3.0 CSL converted. Interesting, because the normal BMW 3.0 CSL was actually a 3.0 CS (carb engine) minus some heavy parts at this time : 1971 september - 1972 july.
- Was it the same time range when the first Alpina 3.0 CSL cars produced ?
- What was the B "number" of these cars ? (B1 or B2?)
- Are the production numbers correct ? (between 15 and 18)
- Are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )
- And what is the specification of these cars (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

2. Let's go to the 2nd batch. The article says : "A year later, just three or four series 1 Batmobile were breathed on."
Again some confusion to me. It is known, that there was 5 different 3.0 CSL cars made:

1. serie : 1971. September - 1972 July : lightweight version of the 3.0 CS - 169 were made
2. serie / LHD: 1972. September - 1973. April : Tuned 3.0 CSi engine, etc - 429 were made
2. serie / RHD: 1972. September - 1973. Janury - RHD cars for the UK market - 500 were made
3. serie : 1973. April - 1973. July - first Batmobile serie - 110 were made
3.5 serie : 1974. April - 1975. November - second Batmobile serie (some minor changes) - 57 were made.

If i understand correctly, Nik Bruce means : 1972 + a year later = 1973. He wrote that Alpina made Series 1 cars in 1973. This information might be incorrect, because in 1973 BMW already made series 2 cars.
So what is the truth :
- Alpina tuned series 1 cars in 1973 ? (but the what about the first Alpina CSL tuning in 1971-1972 ?)
- mistyped information, 1973 was the time of the 2. series of BMW 3.0 CSL and Alpina B2S?

And again, the usual questions:
- What was the B "number" of these cars ? (B2 or B2S)
- Are the production numbers correct ? (between 3 and 4)
- Are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )
- And what is the specification of these cars (engine size in ccm, max speed, 0-100, fuel consumption, etc)

3. 3rd batch of Alpina cars. Even more cofusion. At the end of the article where a last serie Alpina B2S tested, Nik says : "Specification : Alpina 3.0-litre CSL Series II)". And : "Capacity : 3020 cc)

Again : is it series 2 or series 3 ? Also i wonder that why the "normal" CSL engine weren't tuned by Alpina. Didn't they used BMW 3.2 CSL engine ?
The usual questions:
- Are the production numbers correct ? (between 2 and 3)
- What was the time range when the these Alpina B2S cars produced (Year.Month - Year.Month)?
- how many of these B2S cars alive ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's go to the "Id that picture part". Between 1971 and 1974 there was several Alpina 3.0 CSL cars featured in the articles, and i have seen some example on the internet, too.

Can you identify these cars like : which Alpina 3.0 CSL serie (1, 2 or 3), which Alpina number (B2 or B2S), production date, and probably VIN numbers.

4rd pic : probably from 1973
5rd pic : Auto Motor und Sport magazine 1972
6th pic : Carey Ilda's Car
7th pic : probable from 1972, found at : http://www.einszweidrei.de/bmw/alp30csl72-1.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

And finally, let's talk about the Alpina conversion of BMW 2.5CS.
- Were there any of these cars made ?
- If the answer is yes,
- How many cars has been produced ?
- When did the tuning program started (probably in 1974 ?) and when is it finished ?
- are the any working example alive ? (or some scanned pictures of these cars )


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last thing : Alpina modified CS and CSL cars. As far as i know these cars started their life as 2800cs and 3.0 CSL, and after i was produced by BMW the owners sent back them to Alpina to "tune them" into a B2 or a B2S. The 3rd pic is an Alpina modified 2800 CS (B2 specs, sold on ebay) and the 4th picture is an Alpina modified CSL on the left (polaris car) from 1974 (current owner : Jimmy Baker).

I guess these modification wasn't officially advertised by Alpina with brochures, etc. Anyone have some information about this "modification program" ? Which cars were converted later (what about 2800 cs, 3.0 CS, 3.0 CSi, and 2.5CS cars?), how many of them were produced, specifications ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your help in advance.
Attached Thumbnails
alpina1.jpg  

alpina_mod_csl.jpg  

Attached Images
             

Last edited by Stasis M535i; 12th June 2005 at 01:28 PM.
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post #2 of 3 Old 14th June 2005, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
Stasis M535i
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post #3 of 3 Old 15th June 2005, 02:38 PM
Andy G
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Re: Alpina BMW CS coupes - what is the truth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stasis M535i
Sorry, i copied my questions twice.
No worries, just interesting reading. Can't help on the questions though!
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