The DEFINITIVE answer from Alpina regarding organic headgaskets - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)

Danish · 5th March 2009, 22:41

During the Geneva Auto Salon, I spoke with a top guy from Alpina who told me directly that due to not being able to get metal headgaskets for the E36 B8 4.6 in the right size back when the cars were produced, the choice fell on the organic headgaskets (that are in fact made of a paper material). His recommendation was to change the headgaskets on my B8 Cabrio immediately as the car is now 11 years old and the organic headgaskets break down with time as well as mileage.
I do not know how many E39 B10 V8 cars have the organic headgaskets, but the same applies here.

So the conclusion is that if you have organic headgaskets in your B8 or B10, get them changed for metallic ones ASAP. Do not take a chance as they will fail sooner or later.

Any discussion from here on out whether the organic headgaskets are "good enough" to keep in, should be considered noise in my opinion.

Cheers,
Michael

timipi · 6th March 2009, 11:17

Did he tell you which headgaskets you should use when you change them?

schlumpf-nu · 6th March 2009, 15:52

Hay,

which became metallic seal starting from 2001 with ALINA used.

Also in the AG starting from 2001 the metal compression was used.

Therefore also some B10 V8 are and div AG engines concerned.

Whereby BMW engines are nevertheless more favorable in the purchase.

My assumption with the defective head seals is rather because of the heat, the heads forgave itself and then comes it to the defect of the seal.

In any case one must be changed the seal, this is cheap like a complete engine.

Danish · 6th March 2009, 17:48

I also think the constant heat cycling of the engine is responsible for the original organic (made of paper!) headgaskets to fail. Metal headgaskets are what is recommended. As far as I know, Alpina puts in E39 M5 headgaskets for the B8, but I need to confirm this.

IAS · 6th March 2009, 18:06

Michael,

That's what Alpina told me when they replaced the gaskets on my Coupe.

schlumpf-nu · 6th March 2009, 21:21

Hallo Michael,

hier meine Teile:

1x Zylinderkopfdichtung 1112 7833 733
1x Zylinderkopfdichtung 1112 7833 734
2 Satz Zylinderkopfschrauben 1112 7583 115
Dichtung Rohrkrümmer 2x 1162 1728 910
Dichtung Rohrkrümmer 2x 1161 7505 789
Dichtung Ansaugung 4x 1161 1433 328
Dichtung Ventildeckel 1x 1112 9069 872
Dichtung Ventildeckel 1x 1112 9069 871

ACHTUNG; die ZKD geht nur bis 0,3mm ab 0,3 mm müssen andere Dichtungen rein!!!!

Hello Michael,

here my parts:
1x cylinder head gasket 1112 7833 733
1x cylinder head gasket 1112 7833 734
2 set of cheese head screws 1112 7583 115
seal pipe elbow union 2x 1162 1728 910
seal pipe elbow union 2x 1161 7505 789
seal sucking in 4x 1161 1433 328
seal valve cover 1x 1112 9069 872
seal valve cover 1x 1112 9069 871

ATTENTION; the ZKD goes having only to 0,3mm starting from 0.3 mm other seals purely!!!!

Danish · 7th March 2009, 01:15

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for posting those part numbers. Those headgaskets are in fact the E39 M5 headgaskets, so maybe we can close the discussion about which headgaskets to use for the E36 B8 4.6?

Cheers,
Michael

schlumpf-nu · 7th March 2009, 09:30

Hello Michael,

the part numbers communicated to me Mr. Woitsch. The water pump and thermostat are of the e34 4, o!!

Also ALPINA would not release a wave of the warranty claims, if they would admit, the head seal would be correct. As many engines went to part broken.

There we could pull both on the Bahamas, lol.

Danish · 8th March 2009, 02:07

Hi Thomas,

Yes you are right indeed that the official story from Alpina will more or less be that the organic paper-based headgaskets are perfectly fine, as repairing the hundreds of cars affected under warranty would mean an expense well exceeding the one million € mark

B3-Cabrio · 9th March 2009, 00:53

Hello all,

I spoke with Thierry Zunino about this B8 Head Gasket issue. Though, I am not expert in that domain and we were not sure which Head Gasket part number would be the best replacement for the B8.

If I understood correctly there are two options (HG for ///M5 - S62 or HG for M62 E52 ALPINA V8 ROADSTER or E53 X5 4.6is SUV) but only the first one is officially supported by ALPINA but without technical details about the answer.
So, I made my own investigations to compare the two solutions, including bolts tightening (torque and angle) to ensure correct pressure on the gasket as no precision about that was provided so far ...

The big difference between the two HGs are the material (Metal for M5 and Organic for B8, Z8 or X5 4.6is ) and the cylinder diameter (94mm for M5 and 93mm for B8, Z8 or X5 4.6is ) For the normal M62 (4.4L), there is a minimum distance of 6mm between two cylinders, 5mm for the B8, Z8 or X5 4.6is and only 4mm for the S62, which is extremely small !

I have not seen any report of frequent and unusual HG failures on M62 ALPINA Z8 or X5 4.6is) and the cylinder diameter is the same than B8 so it could ne a good candidate.

We don't have any information if the organic material is the same than on the B8. We can expect improvement between 1996 when B8 was first produced and 2001 for the X5 4.6is. The performance of these engines are comparable to the B8, so why the HG would not be an acceptable answer ?

1. HG for ///M5 - S62 (ref 11 12 7 833 733 & 734)

This metal Head Gasket is for a 94mm diameter. I made a quick check about the additional volume added to the combustion chamber. It is equal to 250mm3, compared to the 35cm3, so 35000mm3 of the combustion chamber (if compression ratio is 11:1). So it is about 0,7%, so no effect on performance. The only possible question would be the effect of the heat on the 0,5mm sharp edge not covered by the HG, but I am not really worried at all about that.

I also checked the Cylinder head tightening : the bolts are the same for M62 & S62 engines : M10x110 (BMW ref. 11 12 1 729 246) and the tightening (torque and angle) are identical : 30Nm & 80° as checked on BMW TIS. So no incidence on this aspect as well.

2. HG for ALPINA Z8 or X5 4.6is (ref 11 12 7 519 410 & 406)

Why taking the risk of placing another organic gasket, even if the material could be better than on the B8 when you can use a metallic one without drawbacks ?

Conclusion: this small analysis gives more detailed explanation that the //M5 S62 Head Gasket is a good replacement solution for the B8 (and possibly M62 ALPINA Z8 or X5 4.6is)